A question for our Irish kiltie brothers

[Troy]

Obviously in this day and age every group needs a symbol that is easily identifiable, that people connect to that group, and that stands out. For all Celts, this is the kilt. Whether Scots, Irish, Welsh, or Breton.

Without wanting to throw this thread off-topic by moving away from discussing the Irish connection with kilts, I would respectfully add the Cornish to this list.

Although there is evidence to suggest that there was a kilt-like garment worn in Cornwall in the early 16th Century (some figures carved into the ends of church pews in Altarnun), it would not be sensible suggest that there is an unbroken tradition of kilt wearing in Cornwall.

The year 1903 marked what could arguably be called the first 'modern' appearance of the Cornish kilt: at the Celtic Congress in that year, the Cornish delegate, a "wode-blue" kilt as a symbol of Cornwall's "Celticness". Other Cornishmen picked up on the idea began wearing kilts in solid black, which became recognised as the colour for Cornish kilts (in the same way that, for example, red is the Welsh colour).

Sixty years later, the Cornish bard, E E Morton-Nance registered the sett of the Cornish National tartan, the colours of which have great significance in Cornish history (I won't go into all that here - there is plenty of information available on this Worldy Widey Webby thing!).

"Cornish" kilts are becoming more and more common, both within Cornwall and amongst those of Cornish descent all over the world, and are seen as a symbol of Cornwall's "Celticness", and, indeed, its historical and cultural separateness from England.


Regards,

Troy

[Peter C.]

I lived in Scotland as a child and the only kilts I saw were worn by the local boy scout pipe band. I started wearing a kilt in a British military pipe band. I am English. I have worn my kilt and played my pipes at Burns night dinners and New Years eve parties with Scottish, Irish and English attending and I have often been the only one wearing a kilt. I was also one of the few who had no family claim to a tartan. THE SCOTTS DIDN`T MIND! In fact they loved it.

The USA has its own tartans, so has Canada. So why not Ireland? When a tartan is formed for a clan or region, kilts made from it become a sort of national dress.

I have never seen the Irish people living in England wearing kilts, unless they were in the military or a pipe band. Even when I was wearing my kilt, my Irish friends never mentioned Irish kilts. They would celebrate their culture by having a pint and a sing-song and exchanging tales with friends. But they were close to home.

When you are thousands of miles and possibly a few generations away from that culture, being able to wear some sort of national dress must make you feel closer to that culture. I think that is reason enough for the Irish to wear a kilt to celebrate their culture.

As I said before, the Scotts don`t mind, they love weaving the cloth and selling you the kilts.

I don`t know how you tell a Cornish man, as people have been moving to and from Cornwall for centuries. In fact if you check the DNA of anyone indiginous to the British Isles, you will probably find links to every country in the group, as they have been mingling for centuries.

Peter

[Troy]

I don`t know how you tell a Cornish man, as people have been moving to and from Cornwall for centuries. In fact if you check the DNA of anyone indiginous to the British Isles, you will probably find links to every country in the group, as they have been mingling for centuries.

Peter

Peter,
How do you tell a Cornish man what?

Seriously, though, I'm not quite sure what you mean here: are you suggesting that someone needs a certain DNA in order to lay claim to a cultural heritage? How do you tell if someone is a Welsh man? A Scottish man? A Breton woman? A Cornish man, I guess, is somebody who was born in and/or lives in Cornwall and/or has Cornish ancestry. Someone who identifies themself as being Cornish is no less Cornish than someone who identifies themself as Irish is Irish for similar reasons.

For centuries the Cornish had their own language, which unfortunately all but died out. The Cornish dialect, though, is still going strong (much like the dialects of other areas of the British Isles) and is even evident in the way I speak - 150 years and five generations away from my Cornish born ancestors. The reason for this is that the Cornish had their own traditions and customs which they took to all corners of the world, including the area in which I was born.

To say that there is no such thing as a Cornish identity, which I think is what you are suggesting, because there is no distinct "Cornish" DNA is completely irrelevant. Being Cornish is about relating to a distinct culture, just as being Irish, Welsh, Manx, Breton, Galician, Lithuanian, Polish etc. is.

For the record, I do not consider myself Cornish - I am an Australian who grew up in an area and a household with very obvious historical and cultural links to Cornwall. I also have Scots, Irish, English and German ancestry. (You are 100% correct when you say that people from all Celtic nations have been intermingling for centuries - nowhere is that more evident than in Australia, where people from everywhere have been intermingling for the last couple of centuries.)

I wear the kilt because it looks great, feels comfortable and because it acknowledges an ancestry which is is not "just" English (that is in no way a slur against England or the English).

I'm sorry to hijack this thread, but I just wanted to get that off my chest.

Regards,

Troy

[Colin]

I think it is really interesting that as a Canadian I had never heard the concept that kilts were Irish until it was posted on the forums by some of the American members. Of course the US has a population of Irish heritage where as Canad has a bigger Scottish heritage than Irish.

As for kilts being used in Irish culture or miltary for a hundred or so years, therefore giving and true Irish heritage to kilts I have to disagree to an extent. Kilts have been used in culture and military in Canada for at least as long as that. Kilts would also have a good history in India and part sof Africa as well if I am not mistaken. Yet their is no general conception that kilts are Canadian or Indian. Of course these places aren't next door to Scotland

Having said that I think the Irish and Welsh kilts have become more populorized as a "Celtic" symbol, and that is pretty cool to me. The more the merrier.

[Peter C.]

Troy,
I knew as I wrote ``How do you tell a Cornish man,`` that it would bring forth a comedian First of all, of course there is a Cornish identity. Anyone born in Cornwall is Cornish.

I had a cousin in Australia but unfortunately he died tragically before I got round to visiting him. Most of my distant family are Mormans in Canada, who I have not visited yet either, but they traced our family tree on my mothers side for us. That is how I know that my g. g. g. grandmother was Cornish. But I was born in Dorset (2 counties from Cornwall) so I am not Cornish and cannot become Cornish even if I moved to Cornwall and have Cornish ancestry, I am and always will be a Dorset man, that is how it works in England.

My mothers family lived in the Chanel Islands since the 12th century and there are a lot of French type names in the family tree. Some are from Normandy but as the Chanel Islands are closer to Brittany than any part of the British coast, there is probably some Breton blood as well, but I don`t know and probably never will.

there are many diverse areas of England where people are very proud of their heritage like the Geordies, Yorkshire men, Suffolk men, Men of Kent and Kentish Men to name a few. They are all proud of their individuality and they are all proud Englishmen, which is partly what gives England its rich heritage.

Anyway to get back to the thread: I have found that for a non celt, the best way to enjoy the Irish culture is with Irish friends, and they always make everone welcome. So if they want to wear a kilt to celebrate their culture, so they should, wherever they are in the world, God Bless Em!

And Colin from Canada, I think you are right to think that tartan kilts came from Scotland, but we are all enjoying them and the Scots don`t mind.
God Bless Them Too!

Peter

[flairball]

Thanks to all who replied to my question. It seems there are many different points of view of the Irish kilt connection.

To be honest, I don't see much of a connection between kilts and Irish culture. I'm not disagreeing that some Irish; military, politicians, Ulster-Scots (ex-pat Scots) wore them, but I don't see this as making them cultural. I work in an are with a heavy Irish immigrant population so I often have occassion to talk with a cross section of that population . I've also been to some of the bars where this population congregates. Any conversation I've engaged in about kilt (both while kilted and not), the kilt has been dismissed by these people as a symbol of their culture. Sure, they know what it is, and know of Irish usage, but it's not been accepted by them as part of their culture.

So, I guess the feeling I have is that if it's not widely accepted by the culture it's not a part of the culture.

Now, before I completely piss off all our Irish kilties out there, I'd like to add that I don't care who wears a kilt, or why, I just don't agree with the cultural connection reasoning. I am very fond of some of the Irish Tartans, as well as Saffron too. I just think that if you were to tell an Irishman (or woman for that matter) that you were a kilt because you are celebrating/ honoring your culture they will either think your Scottish, or don't know jack about Irish culutre. Knowing the cultural connection goes hand in hand with knowing the history and significance of the tartan you choose, so If you were wearing, say a Saffron kilt to honor an Irish regiment then I'd say that is connection.

Anyway, that's how I see it. Not trying to knock anyone around. I hope my view is understood, and I to see more replies.

[Peter C.]

Hi Flairball,

I agree completely with what you say, it is exactly what I have experienced in England. My point is just that if anyone feels closer to their ancestral culture by wearing a kilt - then best of luck to them.

I have some celtic ancestry but it doesn`t make me feel celtic. My parents brought me up in their culture and that is now my culture and I am happy with it. I wear a kilt because I play the pipes and because I enjoy wearing a kilt.

But thinking along those same lines, if an Irish family should start wearing kilts regularly now that they have their tartans, then that will become part of the culture for children growing up in that atmosphere.

Cultures are always changing and that is why people are interested in their ancestral cultures, which sometimes involve ancient forms of dress

I do understand how getting involved in ancestral cultures enriches peoples lives. That is why it is a great thing to do.

Peter

[Graywolf]

Troy,

Forgive me for leaving out the Cornish - my error and I apologize - the double single malts clouded my thinking.

[Kid Cossack]

Troy,

Forgive me for leaving out the Cornish - my error and I apologize - the double single malts clouded my thinking.

Aye, Graywolf---far better a double single malt than a single double malt!

[token]

Hello all I am a first time poster,

And I have something to comment on this thread I am glad that the kilt is kicking off in cornwall however I resent the minority of welsh and cornish who consistantly spin blatant false stories regarding the history of kilt wearin in their country. As for the church pews with "kilted figures" this is completely ridiculous to credit the cornish as wearing kilts at this period. It cannot be verified that those figures are even wearing kilts, they could be wearing blacksmith aprons or such. The 15 - 16 century was VERY well documented and there is absolutely no documentation o support the welsh or cornish as ever worn kilts. this is enough to dismiss the carved figures on that church pew as being kilted. We must always remeber that the kilt is also NOT a celtic dress as its invention was post celtic.

anyway thanks for listening all