Clans and Septs

[BEEDEE]

Clan MacRae Society has the same system, as long as you can show some direct link to either the clan or sept, you are in. My mother was a McRae so that's my in, even though my father's family, Dodds, were border reivers on the English side!

Brian

[flairball]

Seems you are asking if your clan affiliation traces back partilinially(sp?), or martilinially(sp?). Well, to be honest it goes back in both directions. You can't change who you are, or where you came from. Does your fathers family have a tartan, or are they affiliated with a clan? I've got a friend of English descent, yet his family history has ties to clan MacKinnon. If there is a connection on your fathers side you could join the clan assoc. of that clan.
As your mothers side has a MacDonald connection, you could most certainly join their clan assoc. too. You could join both clan assoc's if you wanted to.

As for wearing this tartan, or that tartan, don't worry too much. The main thing is to know about the tartan you've chosen, and wear it respectfully. The tartan police don't exist. You won't be locked away if you wear a tartan that doesn't have a connection to you. Lots of people want their tartan to have some significance, and I understand that, as I too feel that way, but it's not a rule. Knowing your lineage as you do you won't have any trouble wearing MacDonald, or what ever clan tartan your fathers side might be associated with. People will ask the significance of your tartan, and just as you've explained here you will explain again.

Welcome to the addiction.

[Kilted KT]

I think it depends on which side has the celtic ancestry? No point in hunting for scottish ancestry down a line that you know is from (insert non-celtic country name here). I've got it on both side, although I'm still hunting on my mom's side.

[RonPaul]

Wow, thanks for all the info and feedback guys!!! As you can tell, I think I'm definately addicted!

[Warhoover]

Welcome to the addiction!!!
Another avenue to look at also in the options for affilliated tartans is the District tartans. These are tartans that are representative of the areas of Scotland where your clan/family historically comes from. If you do a search on here you will find discussions conerning these tartans. Our own Matt Newsome has written about them and commented on them here on XMarks. Do a search or check Matt's website http://www.albanach.org/. He has alot of good info in his posts and his website and blog. There are many discussions on here concerning what tartans to wear etc. etc. If you have a chance read through some of them, Lots of good info abounds and you will learn alot!

Slainte'

[brandycr]

I have Scots blood on both sides .Since my mother was a geneaolgist had her lines done so I did my fathers lines.I wear skirt and clothes with all family lines tartans got the blood get the tartan lol.

[Raptor]

Traditionally Scotland was a matriarchal society, this being the practice of the Picts. One took the father's name but traced bloodlines through the mother. I can only assume this was somewhat unwieldy, but that's the way it was, at least in pre-Christian times.

Personally I wear the Gordon and do so proudly, although my father was a Wood of Clan Watson. My mother was a Laurie from Laurie/Muir (Gordon) and Dyer (Skene)/Gardner (Gordon) lines, and a grandfather & great-grandfather served with the Gordon Highlanders. My preference therefore is the Gordon, although in as much as this "entitles" me to any clan tartan, I could wear Gordon, Skene, or Watson. In the end though, I could also wear any tartan that caught my eye, & could proclaim my heritage via a badge etc. Being a bit of a traditionalist though, I chose to follow an edict from an early clan chief directing all Gordons & their septs to wear a uniform tartan. In fact this is commonly believed to be the first example of a "uniform clan tartan". My choice. The only "official" regulation regarding wearing the tartan that I'm aware of is that it be done with good taste.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Traditionally Scotland was a matriarchal society, this being the practice of the Picts. One took the father's name but traced bloodlines through the mother. I can only assume this was somewhat unwieldy, but that's the way it was, at least in pre-Christian times.

I hear this claim made frequently, but I wonder what the evidence is. For example, in the above statement, it is said that in pre-Christian times one took the father's name but traced bloodlines through the mother. But there are some series problems with this statement. For instance, the use of inherited surnames (the same last name being passed on from one generation to the next) didn't really come to Scotland until the twelfth century, and the practice was not seen in Gaelic Scotland until centuries after that. So to talk of taking your father's name in pre-Christian times is very anachronistic.

Another problem I have with this is that all of the by-names we see being used in Gaelic society prior to the use of actual surnames all relate to the father's line, not the mother's. MacDonald = Son of Donald. MacLaren = Son of Lawrence. MacKenzie = Son of Kenneth. (All these are Anglicized equivalents just given for example). The only time someone would style themselves as "son of [mother's name]" would be when their mother was an unusually important figure. And the only example that springs to mind of this is Connor MacNessa (Irish). This example stands out so much because it is so extremely rare.

So I just wonder, really, what the evidence is for Scotland ever being a matrilinial society?

~M

[Raptor]

I may well be spreading various academic's mistakes with the above comment, but I've always accepted it based on the argument derived from the "king list" where the Pictish kings showed matrilinear succession but seemed to be described as "son of xxxx" I certainly did not mean to imply that the "mac" prefix was used in pre-roman times. Either way, I'm equally proud of both paternal & maternal sides of the family, as the sum of them is who I am.

[MacWage]

Without getting into COMPLEX arguements over the Pictish culture, some prominant scholars that study the Picts believe that THEY were matrilinial.
Scotland means "Land of the Scots," who were the ones that came over from IRELAND and established "Scottish" Dalraidia as a portion of the older "Kingdom" of Dalraidia. Dalraidia was based, generally, in the modern Argyle region. The Scots were distinct from the Picts.
IF there was matrilinial descent, it would have died out when the Scots "overtook" the Picts (no matter WHAT form that took).
The Pictish kingdom merged with the Scot one under Kenneth MacAlpine (or whatever spelling one gives), who became king of both and "Scotified" the whole. Kenneth did inherit the Pictish title through his maternal links, though such is NOT proof that this practice was standard, unusual, or something in between. In later generations, the "high-kingship"/national monarch was elected from a body of cousins-> all within a set generational descent from a previous king. They were the sons and grandsons of both paternal and maternal lines down from a king. (In the case of Duncan, MacBeth, and Thorfinn, they were cousins of the same generation and Thorfin supported MacBeth as the most qualified candidate, esp. after Duncan's disastous reign and failed combat.) It wasn't until the ascention of Malcolm Canmore (Big Head) that direct paternal descent of the monarchy became standard practice, being adopted by Malcolm following his 17 years in the Anglo-Saxon royal court in England.

At the moment, I forget if, at Macbeth/Duncan's time if it was the grandchild of a king, the great-grandchild of the king, or the great-great grandchild. I THINK it was the great-grandchild. I'll look it up later.

Pictish history, society, and culture is the subject of MUCH debate. If one looks at the Osprey book on the "Pictish Warrior: AD 297-841" (Warrior series, 50), one gets a glimpse at the mass confusion (and the reason for it) when trying to understand the Picts. Simply put, they didn't write down anything we can understand andwe only have fragments of their language (which is not even enough to definatively say if it is P-celtic, q-celtic, or another language completely). It WAS different enough that Colum Chille needed a TRANSLATOR when he first dealt with Brude in what is modern Inverness. What we have is VERY fragmentary primary sources and slighted early secondary material.
The matrilinial lineage as the central lineage is ONE of teh hotly debated issues among modern Pict scholars.