LOOK at the SELVEDGE!!!

[MacWage]

These portraits came up in another thread:



Now, LOOK at the bottom of the belted plaids! One is RED and the other looks GOLD!
Is that a BINDING?
Is that a HEM?
Is that a PART of the SELVEDGE itself?

It's just something I've noticed over the years that others seem to not have and have NO IDEA of what I am taking about when I ask about them.

So, any thoughts?

(Mods, feel free to move wherever is deemed most appropriate.)

[M. A. C. Newsome]

John,

It was not unusual in the eighteenth century for tartans to be woven with a different pattern on the selvedge.

Take a look at Mungo Murray's kilt!

[ozone]

hey! that last picture shows the guy wearing a skirt, not a kilt since there is no apron. What gives, oh wise MAC Newsome?

[pipesndrumsnun]

Hmm...the first guy looks like he has a boa constrictor slung over his shoulder. I didn't even know they had boas in Scotland; a cousin of Nessie, perhaps?!

[Casper]

hey! that last picture shows the guy wearing a skirt, not a kilt since there is no apron. What gives, oh wise MAC Newsome?

I'd guess that he's just English.

[McMurdo]

I'd guess that he's just English.

I found this on Mungo Murray regarding the painting

Sir Mungo Murray, 1668 - 1700. Son of 2nd Earl of Atholl
about 1683

Lord Mungo, the fifth son of the Marquis of Atholl, is dressed for hunting. He wears a belted plaid - a double width of tartan about five metres long, belted around the body to form a kilt and cloak. This traditional highland costume is worn with a fashionable doublet. He holds a flintlock sporting gun and carries two pistols in his belt. He also has a dirk and a ribbon basket sword. His servant, in the background, carries a longbow, used for hunting deer. Lord Mungo died young, fighting the Spanish in Panama in Central America.

Sorry i should have posted this earlier this is a link to Matt's page with the potrait in case you want to reads up on why his feilidh-mhor looks the way it does:

http://www.albanach.org/drawstring.htm

[Woodsheal]

hey! that last picture shows the guy wearing a skirt, not a kilt since there is no apron. What gives, oh wise MAC Newsome?

You can't apply modern kilt construction concepts to belted plaids of 300 years ago! The pleating was not uniform, and often extended around the entire circumference of the kilted portion. Note that the piper's "apron" opens to his left, too. His "boa" is a fancy sword baldric

[MacWage]

ALL THREE OF THOSE are, generally, from around 1700 and represent belted plaids in the "semi-formal" kilt wear of the time.
The first 2 were commissioned by Chief Grant and are his piper and champion (which also served as the model for MANY early depictions of Rob Roy). AND, for the LIFE of me, it LOOKS like they have a binding around the ENTIRE perimeter of the belted plaid (look at the bottom and top edges, as well as where the material SHOULD have the cut edge hem).
Interesting.

The third is of a disputed person, of various identifications and, accordingly, the time of the painting. The "Lord Mungo" attribution is the most common one. The latest period one (I've heard) is of a famous actor playing Rob Roy in a play made between the Jacobite rebellions (and sometimes dated to Walter Scott's period, a century later). If Matt says it is Mungo, I put weight on his opinion on the matter. Of NOTE is that HIS kilt has a RATHER DIFFERENT bottom edge than the tartan itself, MUCH more "black" with brighter line right near the edge.

[Woodsheal]

AND, for the LIFE of me, it LOOKS like they have a binding around the ENTIRE perimeter of the belted plaid (look at the bottom and top edges, as well as where the material SHOULD have the cut edge hem).
Interesting.

I've read descriptions of wool or silk tape binding around the edges of plaids from that period. Some of my reenactor friends do this to theirs, and it looks good!

[ChattanCat]

I have seen some selvage that is different from side to side. It may be a weavers' preference as to what each selvage color is. Just a thought from an uneducated kilter, and soon (hopefully) weaver.