Other Stewarts

[Peter C.]

Not only "Pontious Pilate's Bodyguard", but the Black Watch, Royal Scots, R.S.D.G. and the K.O.S.B. were also given permission to wear the Royal Stewart tartan, Peter. There have been several Commonwealth regiments as well:

http://www.regiments.org/tradition/tartans/stuartro.htm

And my point was, btw, that the Black Watch was a "universal" tartan first as a regimental tartan (the Royal Scots wore it before adopting the Hunting Stewart tartan, for example) before it became a "free tartan". I was not implying that it was a restricted tartan.

Todd

Sorry Todd, but I wasn't getting at you. I only mentioned the Royal Scots as an example of the Monarch giving permission to wear the Royal Stewart tartan. I only chose them as, along with the Black Watch, they are a regiment I have served alongside.

However you listing all those regiments that have been given permission does help make my point. I didn't know about Pontious Pilate's Bodyguard

But it is a fact that any clothing worn by the British Military can be worn with impunity by civilians and Royal Stewart tartan getting all that exposure probably helped push it into the "free zone".

Peter

[macwilkin]

Sorry Todd, but I wasn't getting at you. I only mentioned the Royal Scots as an example of the Monarch giving permission to wear the Royal Stewart tartan. I only chose them as, along with the Black Watch, they are a regiment I have served alongside.

However you listing all those regiments that have been given permission does help make my point. I didn't know about Pontious Pilate's Bodyguard

But it is a fact that any clothing worn by the British Military can be worn with impunity by civilians and Royal Stewart tartan getting all that exposure probably helped push it into the "free zone".

Peter

The nickname refers to the Royal Scots being the oldest regiment of the line, being raised under royal warrant of Charles I for service in France by John Hepburn in 1633:

While in French service in the 17th century, The Royal Scots (then known as Hepburn's Regiment, or Le Régiment de Hebron) got into an argument with the Picardie Regiment about which was the oldest. As the argument escalated, the Scots jestingly claimed to be descended from the Roman legion whose detachment guarded Jesus' tomb. (There may have Caledonians in that legion, but certainly no lineal continuity with Hepburn's regiment.) To which the French replied: had we been on guard, Christ's body would not have gone missing. The story may be apocryphal, but "Pontius Pilate's Bodyguard" apparently started as a taunt and became The Royal Scots' favourite nickname for it signalled their antiquity. Also fueling this connection is the tradition that Pontius Pilate was born in Fortingall, Perthshire, to a Roman officer stationed there, but it is quite unlikely that as Procurator of Judea he had a bodyguard from Scotland.

-- http://www.regiments.org/about/faq/oldest.htm

The 9th Battalion, Royal Scots, a territorial battalion, was the only battalion to wear the kilt, as it was largely made up of Highlanders living in Edinburgh; they were known as "The Dandy Ninth".

No worries; I just wanted to clarify my position.

T.

[Peter C.]

"Can" and "should" are two different things.

Yes Gilmore, I agree, and whether you wear any tartan or not is a personal choice. We must respect each others personal choices.

I seem to keep quoting Phil from Scotland who wrote in another thread that he finds it interesting that it is mainly non-Scottish members who have strong views on this matter.

Peter

[Peter C.]

The nickname refers to the Royal Scots being the oldest regiment of the line, being raised under royal warrant of Charles I for service in France by John Hepburn in 1633:



The 9th Battalion, Royal Scots, a territorial battalion, was the only battalion to wear the kilt, as it was largely made up of Highlanders living in Edinburgh; they were known as "The Dandy Ninth".

No worries; I just wanted to clarify my position.

T.

I love it, I just wish I had known these tidbits when I was drinking in the Royal Scots Sgts Mess. Ooohhhh I would have had some fun.

[gilmore]

Yes Gilmore, I agree, and whether you wear any tartan or not is a personal choice. We must respect each others personal choices.

I seem to keep quoting Phil from Scotland who wrote in another thread that he finds it interesting that it is mainly non-Scottish members who have strong views on this matter.

Peter

I suspect it is that Scots, unlike Americans, usually know when they or some one else is wearing something inappropriately, and that it is probably being done intentionally, and thus saying something about the wearer.

Also, Scots who would disapprove---and there are those who do--- are usually far too well mannered to say anything about it, at least not so that the wearer hears it. They have just been brought up that way.

[macwilkin]

I love it, I just wish I had known these tidbits when I was drinking in the Royal Scots Sgts Mess. Ooohhhh I would have had some fun.

Peter,

I good source for all things "regimental" (in terms of customs and traditions) is Byron Farwell's Mr. Kipling's Army. It is chock full of all sorts of information on regimental nicknames, customs, relics, etc.

As far as the Royal Scots goes, there was a rather mean-spirited nickname assigned to 2nd Battalion after the fall of Hong Kong in Dec. 1941, which I won't repeat here.

T.

[Peter C.]

I suspect it is that Scots, unlike Americans, usually know when they or some one else is wearing something inappropriately, and that it is probably being done intentionally, and thus saying something about the wearer.

Also, Scots who would disapprove---and there are those who do--- are usually far too well mannered to say anything about it, at least not so that the wearer hears it. They have just been brought up that way.

If you are wearing a kilt, nobody, not even a Scot, can tell if you are a member of the clan the tartan represents, without asking you. The Scots themselves also make everything from carpets to cushions and joke underwear to funny hats in all the popular tartans.
The kilt shops in Scotland also sell any kilt to anybody. The mills sell any tartan to anybody. If they couldn't, prices would go sky high and they would probably go out of business.

As far as your second point is concerned, you certainly get fewer derogatory comments when wearing a kilt in the British Isles than you do here in the US but I don't think that is because of manners. It is probably because everyone in the British Isles knows what a kilt is.
Kilts are part of our history and we always have kilted regiments in our military so children learn that a kilt is an article of mens clothing. Whereas here in the US many people really believe they are looking at a man in a skirt.

Have you ever been to Scotland? If not you should try to go. Not only will you have a great time but I think you will be surprised how few Scots wear kilts, especially out of tourist season. Also at highland games in Scotland they don't have clan tents or clan anything, they just have the games and all are welcome. They do have beer tents

Peter

[Peter C.]

Peter,

I good source for all things "regimental" (in terms of customs and traditions) is Byron Farwell's Mr. Kipling's Army. It is chock full of all sorts of information on regimental nicknames, customs, relics, etc.

As far as the Royal Scots goes, there was a rather mean-spirited nickname assigned to 2nd Battalion after the fall of Hong Kong in Dec. 1941, which I won't repeat here.

T.

Thanks Todd, I must look into that.

Peter

[Jock Scot]

As a Scot,can I confirm that the kilt is rarely seen as "every day"wear,weddings,funerals,highland games and formal dinners would be the "norm".I as am a member of the "older generation"(not old)and from a somewhat traditional background,I find the wearing of many tartans difficult to comprehend.I wear my clan tartan proudly and that is fine for me,and I think many resident Scots of all generations would adhere to that convention.You colonials(no offence intended)have a happy knack of adjusting conventions to suit yourselves and quite right too!I also think that there are some of you colonials(sorry)who get very hot under the collar over what is correct,yes and some Scots too,but on the whole, wear what you are happy with seems pretty sensible to me.

[Jock Scot]

As a Scot,can I confirm that the kilt is rarely seen as "every day"wear,weddings,funerals,highland games and formal dinners would be the "norm".I as am a member of the "older generation"(not old)and from a somewhat traditional background,I find the wearing of many tartans difficult to comprehend.I wear my clan tartan proudly and that is fine for me,and I think many resident Scots of all generations would adhere to that convention.You colonials(no offence intended)have a happy knack of adjusting conventions to suit yourselves and quite right too!I also think that there are some of you colonials(sorry)who get very hot under the collar over what is correct,yes and some Scots too,but on the whole, wear what you are happy with seems pretty sensible to me.