Kilt Maker Disappointment

[M. A. C. Newsome]

As someone who is not only a kilt maker, but a regualr wearer of kilts, who has also purchased from a number of other kilt makers, I think I can see both sides of the issue.

First of all, if you want a kilt that is made a certain way, or that is somewhat "outside the box," your instincts were right in going to an individual kilt maker. Usually, an individual kilt maker will have the ability to be more flexible than a shop who only retails other people's kilts. Plus you will actually get the chance to talk directly to the person who will be making the kilt, to explain just what it is that you want.

The first thing to consider is that this is your kilt and you should be able to get the kilt that you want. A good kilt maker will listen to your requests, and try to accomodate them as much as is possible.

BUT, that does not mean that the kilt maker needs to accomodate your every request. As Barb and Howard have both pointed out, sometimes the best answer is, "I'm sorry, but I can't do that." Let's face it -- you don't want a craftsman doing somethign that he or she is not comfortable with. You go to an individual craftsman because you are seeking their competence in their skill. A good craftsman will be competant enough to know what they can and cannot do.

Also, kilt makers will have their own idea of standards. Barb has already pointed this out. Do I really want to sew my label into a kilt that I don't think is "up to snuff?" I have periodically had potential clients approach me about making kilts from their own cloth, which for whatever reason was not suitable to kilt making. If the cloth does not meet certain minimum standards, I I have to turn down their request. I simply don't want to make a kilt -- and take their money for making a kilt -- that I think will be sub par.

On the particular issue of velcro, I think it is safe to say that for many people, velcro in a kilt implies a lower quality garment. I'll be blunt -- I've never seen velcro used in a high quality kilt. The only kilts I have seen that utilize velcro have been children's kilts, or inexpensive casual kilts for adults. So it is very likely that this kilt maker you want to did not want to make a kilt with velcro because she didn't feel it would be to her usual standards. I can't blame her for that.

Now, I would hope that any kilt maker would be able to listen to whatever requests you have, and if they could not be met, explain to you why, and maybe offer some alternatives. For instance, you could have had the kilt made with no straps and buckles at all, and just worn it with the belt holding it on. I've done that before and it works just fine. If you decided later on down the road you could have added your own velcro.

Anyway, without having first hand knoweldge of the treatment you recieved, I can't comment. I certainly hope she wasn't rude to you, and if she was, shame on her. However, I don't think she can be faulted for simply declining the request. Lots of other kilt makers would have made the same judgement call. But others may have decided differently. In the end it was her call to make.

Aye,
Matt

[James MacMillan]

I have a solution for you. It's time-consuming, but it's very very satisfying, and if you're careful, you can get *exactly* the kilt you want in every single detail.

make it yourself.

Buy Barb and Elsie's book, buy the material, buy the velcro, and settle down for many hours of careful labour, BUT...it's not so bad. Try it!

I am what could be said to be sewing machine challenged. I have attempted to make several projects on that infernal machine, and all but the most basic of bags has come up wanting.

The projects that turn out for me, are all hand done. And yes, a "Traditional" kilt is hand sewn! (please no flames) but there are some parts of a traditional kilt (if meant for daily wear) that I think should require the strength of a machine stitch.

So I will continue to order my custome kilts by the mail, and only use the kilt makers that will sew it the way I am paying for it.

There are many, many kilt makers who understand that the customers money has the power.

[The Wizard of BC]

I don't make no sissy kilts!!!

And how the heck did you get in here anyway?






Kidding aside, Bear and I had a discussion about two years ago on the merits of Velcro. He was for it, I was against. The objection I had was that I don't think it's strong enough for a kilt. But hey, I've done Velcro kilts.
On my style of kilt I was able to solve the problem of the hook side tearing up the wool by making the inside of the waistband with my Poly/Cotton fabric.
That won't work on a Traditional Style waistband but on mine it worked fine.

My business is different than Barbs or Matts. I do totally custom work. Having a customer walk in with unusual requests is part of my daily life. We say around here that we are dragging the venerable kilt kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
Some jobs I take and some I refer to someone else. I would never ask Barb to do a kilt in any style other than what she is famous for. My Tewksbury is just that. A Tewksbury. Pleated perfection.

If you would like, give me a call or shoot me an e-mail and we can talk about what you would like.
Then I'll show you a neat trick with that big rectangle thingy on the other side of the room. It's called a door. And the trick has to do with my boot and your pleats.

[James MacMillan]

First off, allow me to say “Thank You!” to all that responded to my original post. I wrote it when I was (WAS) very sad, that I would not have a new kilt coming. I had built myself up to expect an experience that may have been mis-guided.

Although I still think that the customer is right !

Barb and Matt - I have never seen one of your kilts, but I have heard many good things about them. Here in Southern California, there is sadly little personal inter-play between the kilted, except at the few highland games or Burns dinners. And I don’t make it a habit to ask the maker of a kilt, nor have I seen a tag visible (other that the odd Sportkilt or USAkilt.)

The Velcro part of the discussion was really a very minor part. I can live with buckles – all but two of my kilts have buckles; I know how to do the “kilt swivel.” Buckles work – but so does Velcro….. different uses, same purpose.

What really turned me off to this kilt maker was her refusal to make the apron pleat deeper. I really think the apron hangs much better with that pleat being deeper.

You’ll also notice that I didn’t name the kiltmaker in question, nor will I. I do not want her to lose any business on my account (other than mine!) The three custom made kilts (tanks) that I own were all made in Scotland, and I really like them. They do get somewhat less wear than my “off the rack” kilts, but with daily kilt wear, I guess that is to be expected. I tend to save them (the tanks) for the more dressy times when I am wearing a jacket or for formal wear – but I think that is understandable.

As I write this I am sitting at the computer in a Sportkilt. Later I plan to change into a Stillwater to go out.

Again, thanks for the replies.

[way2fractious]

The projects that turn out for me, are all hand done. And yes, a "Traditional" kilt is hand sewn! (please no flames) but there are some parts of a traditional kilt (if meant for daily wear) that I think should require the strength of a machine stitch. (emphasis added)

There you have it! Settle in for an enjoyable experience making your own traditional hand-sewn kilt (except for the fastening system.) Along the way, you'll find that "the strength of a machine stitch" is not needed because of the traditional means used to relieve the stresses at certain points caused by daily wear.

w2f

[Barb T]

What really turned me off to this kilt maker was her refusal to make the apron pleat deeper. I really think the apron hangs much better with that pleat being deeper.

Hi James,

By a 12" deep pleat , do you mean literally 24" of material folded in half so that the pleat is 12" deep, or 12" of material folded so that the pleat is 6" deep?

If you mean the latter, then that's actually not out of line with what good kiltmakers do - depends on the tartan.

If you mean the former, then 12" can, actually, be a real issue. Whether it would work would depend on the size of the person and on the amount of shaping in the apron of the kilt. If someone had 40" hips, the apron would be somewhere around 20" across at the hips and somewhat less at the waist. A first pleat that is a true 12" deep would be more than half the width of the apron. That's really odd, and I can't see any advantage to having that. And, if there's any flare at all to the apron, the kilt will not hang well. The only kilt for which this wouldn't be true would be for a very big guy (a waist of 50" plus, where half the apron width is more than 12") who also had a kilt with essentially no taper in the apron.

This may have been the reason that the kiltmaker wouldn't do it. I probably would try to talk you out of it, too, because it wouldn't hang well unless you were the guy described at the end of the paragraph above.

Barb

[The Wizard of BC]

I have to agree with Barb on this point of VERY deep under apron pleats.
On my kilts the deep and reverse pleats are deeper than normal but that is due to the fabric I work with. Poly/Cotton does not drape as well as Wool so I make my deep pleats DEEP. With Wool however, that drape very can cause problems.

I had the ability to experiment. I would build a kilt, try it on, and squat. If the apron did not drop between my legs I would cut it off and add a deeper pleat.
Then I would stand back up and see if the added depth caused the apron to hang funny when standing and walking. It was only these experiments (8-10 tries) that allowed me to come up with what works for my fabrics.

A Traditionally Styled and competently made kilt has worked fine for many men over many years. Most kiltmakers I know have looked at their work in action and tweeked their design till it works for them.

Yes, the kilt is still evolving. We, as kiltmakers, are still experimenting and trying to make our product better.

I hope that the kiltmaker you speak of was at least polite when saying they could not handle your request. I too have told potential customers that I was not willing to make what they are asking for. For example, I will not make a reverse Kingussie pleated kilt with a 7" apron.

[pdcorlis]

I have written and trashed three replys as this thread has moved along. As usual - others have been able to make my point better than I ever could. I just want to throw in a quick THANK YOU to all our highly talented kiltmakers for their contributions to this thread. I think they have revealed some important truths about kilt making here.

For this kilt wearer, each kilt I have added to my humble kollection comes with some newly learned truths about kilts. I have, in the past, had some pretty "exciting" ideas about how each kilt could be constructed or pleated. It has been up to our skilled kilt makers to gently explain why my ideas can't or won't work. So again - a big THANKS to all those who help us understand kiltmaking just a bit better.

[James MacMillan]

Hi James,

By a 12" deep pleat , do you mean literally 24" of material folded in half so that the pleat is 12" deep, or 12" of material folded so that the pleat is 6" deep?

If you mean the latter, then that's actually not out of line with what good kiltmakers do - depends on the tartan.

If you mean the former, then 12" can, actually, be a real issue. Whether it would work would depend on the size of the person and on the amount of shaping in the apron of the kilt. If someone had 40" hips, the apron would be somewhere around 20" across at the hips and somewhat less at the waist. A first pleat that is a true 12" deep would be more than half the width of the apron. That's really odd, and I can't see any advantage to having that. And, if there's any flare at all to the apron, the kilt will not hang well. The only kilt for which this wouldn't be true would be for a very big guy (a waist of 50" plus, where half the apron width is more than 12") who also had a kilt with essentially no taper in the apron.

This may have been the reason that the kiltmaker wouldn't do it. I probably would try to talk you out of it, too, because it wouldn't hang well unless you were the guy described at the end of the paragraph above.

Barb

I was talking about 12" deep (24" of cloth) but remember, we were in the opening discussion stage. If the kiltmaker had appeared to know her stuff, and not just had a mold that all were forced to fit, I probably could have been talked into less cloth usage. Also, please remember that I wear kilts on an almost daily basis. When the left side of the apron doesn't have a deeper pleat, the pleats tend to open up and look not as good as it should.

I wanted the 12 inch pleat because one of my hand made kilts, has ten inches, and it works very well. I am a big (fat) (corporate?) guy 5'11" tall, Natural waist 42", Kilt waist 44", Hips 50", normal (overall) kilt length 23 1/2", my apron widths vary from 17 1/2" to 23" depending on the maker- (not depending on the tartan.) The aprons on my custom hand made tanks all are 22" Overall -there is very little taper in the wider aprons and none on one (looking at the tartan) the most taper that I see is on an "off the rack" kilt and that taper is close to 1 1/2"

My measurements haven't changed in a few years now, so I think I have settled in.

[Barb T]

For a person your size, it might work. But whether the first pleat opens up (kicks forward) when you are standing still has little to do with how deep the first pleat is and everything to do with how your thighs are shaped and how the kiltmaker actually constructed the first pleat.

Barb