Cheap formal wear?

[ChromeScholar]

Are you defining "clothing snobs" as people who closely examine your garments and determine that they aren't made in Scotland or the right manufacturer and scoff at your attire?

Pretty much...

Here on XMTS I have seen some really splendid jacket conversions and some awkward ones. Likewise I have nodded with approval at some very clever and creative inexpensive formalwear outfits whilst shuddering at others.

Does this make me a "clothing snob"?

Are you the sort of person who says something like "If waiters' jackets passed as formal wear then plenty of people would buy them instead of buying or renting a real tux. Guess what they don't, because they don't look right. Using the excuse that no one else will know is bad form and quite frankly wrong. Certainly there are many people who nothing of clothing who will accept what you wear as the real deal, but plenty others will still see that you are not wearing quality garments." If so, IMO, you're a clothing snob. To the best of my knowledge, I've never read you posting something like that (nor has Matt Newsome or Hamish, AFAIK). A clothing snob cares more about the clothing than the person inside that clothing. I'd like to think that the three of you have more class than that.

Or are these "clothing snobs" the ones who have a well developed fashion sense?

And just what is "a well-developed fashion sense? Fashion is in the eye of the beholder, after all. You or I thinking something looks good doesn't make it the height of fashion. Add to that the fact that what "looks good" today may be panned tomorrow, and I'm hard pressed to decide what a "well-developed sense of fashion" is.

[O'Neille]

I only once noticed what one other person wore to a black tie event! He is probably one of the wealthiest people in Arizona and attended in a brown suit. I wouldn't have noticed if it was a nice black suit or if his wife wasn't so stunning in her outfit. I don't consider myself a clothes snob but this was a hobo suit. I wore my P.C. and passed on my royal blue velvet Montrose, jabot and cuffs. In this case I would have been a little out of place in the blue even though it is uber formal.

My advice is...If you stand out, stand out proud. If not just try to blend in with the rest of the cattle.

[Panache]

ChromeScholar,

From my understanding, I think that Chef has quite a lot of experience with formal attire and he was offering his opinion. I very much agree with his sentiments that just because other people don't have very much knowledge of Highland Attire, this doesn't make a poor quality outfit any better. He also offered some ideas about kilted formal attire on the cheap.

One of the most useful things about XMTS is that people can share ideas and get some constructive feedback.

We are all proud of the various projects we attempt, but to be honest some of them don't work out as well as we hope. The information we get from our peers is invaluable in helping us do better the next time.

There is a big difference between discussing what works as formal wear here and confronting someone about it at a formal event (which I doubt happens very often). Which would you prefer? To have it offered that perhaps certain attempts at formalwear don't work well and are noticably inferior to that which they are trying to blend in with here on XMTS? Or would you rather attend a formal Burns' Night Supper and not know that there were many amongst the guests who, though they never mentioned it, thought that your attire was not appropriate?

Like it or not, there are fashion rules. Being aware of them is important. Confidence in one's attire is a huge thing, too many people's ensembles fail because they don't project the confidence needed to carry off an outfit. Note though, that wearing a powder blue polyester tux with blue ruffles to a formal event is one thing, wearing it and thinking that it is the height of appropriate formality is something else. If you don't want to acknowledge fashion and don't care what people think then by all means go forth boldly and march to the beat of your own drummer. But a lot of people on this forum are looking for constructive feedback so that they achieve the right look so they they and everyone else will think their outfit is smart.

Speaking of smart, it isn't very smart or terribly nice to get on a high horse dressed in expensive handmade Scottish finery and look down at all other options (and rather petty actually).

It is equally not smart or nice to derride expensive quality goods as being not worth it and that the bargain price option is always the best (it can seem rather uniformed).

I and most of the Nor Cal Rabble have a wonderfully liberating sense of both recognizing quality and appreciating bargins. Everything doesn't have to be Hector Russell's of Geoffrey Taylor's best. On the other hand Stillwater kilts and second hand shops can't provide everything one needs to achieve the perfect attire for every occassion.



Cheers

Jamie

[ChromeScholar]

I think I'll respond to you by PM.

[Alan H]

When it comes right down to it.....

....and I know this will sound very odd, coming out of the guy who's made 18 kilts ....

...but clothes just aren't that important to me. I have enough sense to try to look reasonable in any given situation, but I'm more or less oblivious to "fashion". Prior to donning kilts, I lived in t-shirts (mostly from my sailing society) polo shirts, a fleece jacket when it was cold, blue jeans and athletic shoes. In essence, my choice of clothing hadn't changed since high school. Honestly, I'd keep wearing that attire until I died, if I hadn't gotten into kilts.

Yes, I knew when it was appropriate to wear a coat and tie, and since I had to be able to play on stage in various musical groups, I wore "black tie" more often than anybody but my other musician friends. But still, I got stuff that was good enough, and that was fine. I took no great joy in purchasing the finest clothing. I mean....I had to have a jacket so I bought a reasonable navy blue jacket, teamed it up with gray slacks and a white shirt and a red tie and you know....that worked for a whole lot of stuff. ONE jacket, ONE pair of slacks, TWO ties and two white shirts. End of story. Believe me the jacket was nothing fancy.

I buy most of my non-kilt clothing at either Mervyns (one-and-a-half steps above Target or Costco, but two steps below Macy's in quality) or REI.

I just can't justify spending THAT much more money on clothes. It'd kill me to drop $250 on a jacket. I've got the money, now, but it'd just kill me, anyway. What a waste....what ELSE could I spend that money on? I might, maybe drop $250 on foul weather gear, or backpacking gear, but that's because in those cases my life might depend on what I'm wearing.

So for me, a guy for whom the word "fashion" just makes me lose my lunch, and "dressing appropriately for the occasion" is something that ought to take about ten minutes and I really simply don't CARE about having 'the best"...I am entirely happy with an Eton jacket, which cost $69 and a vest from the Uniformalwearhouse, which cost me $12. That goes along with my Macy's blue sportcoast and grey slacks from Mervyns.

I don't want to look like an idiot, but I'd rather spend my money on something else. That's just me.

However, if someone else wants to go whole-hog and dress to kill and spend the corresponding amount of money, then that's great...go right ahead. Have a blast picking it out, and I bet you'll look fantastic.

[ChromeScholar]

Thank you, Alan. That's pretty much my point of view.

[Chef]

FWIW, in the UK a tux jacket is also a "dinner jacket."

You are correct the "proper" term for what is know in the US as the Tuxedo is the Dinner Jacket. Interestingly while the term Tuxedo is commonly accepted you never see it listed on invitations. They will always refer to "Black Tie" or Dinner Jackets.

If you re interested in the history of the "Tuxedo" there are several versions but here is a good synopsis of the most common one. Tuxedo History

I believe that the white jacket at dinner/black one afterward was the custom.

Not by strict convention. Strict convention holds that the White Dinner Jacket is used in the summer where ever the Memorial Day to Labour Day idea of white clothing is held, or all year round in the "tropics".

The idea of White Dinner Jackets early and Black Jackets after is somewhat unusual and limited. (And as with most of these histories there are several histories or myths) The idea, as I understand it, came from certain clubs that did not allow white Dinner Jackets in the members only areas of the club. So members who were attending a function (i.e. wedding) in one of the public spaces might be wearing white during dinner (if it was a summer wedding) but then might retire to the Members only area afterwards with black jackets. There are other versions of why this was done but as I said it is unusual. For the most part it is perfectly acceptable to wear your White Dinner Jacket all evening as long as it is the right time of year or you are at the right latitude.

I am one of the few who actually owns a White Dinner Jacket. It probably gets worn 4 or 5 times a year and I actually prefer it to the Black jacket. I used to have a white mess dress jacket that I used in the summer with a kilt and it looked great. unfortunately I outgrew it and I haven't as yet replaced it.

[Chef]

Are you the sort of person who says something like "If waiters' jackets passed as formal wear then plenty of people would buy them instead of buying or renting a real tux. Guess what they don't, because they don't look right. Using the excuse that no one else will know is bad form and quite frankly wrong. Certainly there are many people who nothing of clothing who will accept what you wear as the real deal, but plenty others will still see that you are not wearing quality garments." If so, IMO, you're a clothing snob. To the best of my knowledge, I've never read you posting something like that (nor has Matt Newsome or Hamish, AFAIK). A clothing snob cares more about the clothing than the person inside that clothing. I'd like to think that the three of you have more class than that.

Ok, since I am the referenced "Clothing Snob" I'd like to say a few things here.

1. I never referenced any label or maker, nor did I suggest that anyone needs to wear a certain brand. While I may enjoy kilts or other goods that come from well known houses I am not a label snob. I could care less what the label on the inside says and hopefully I won't see the label by looking at the outside.

2. I never said anyone needs to spend a lot on their formal-wear or any other clothing. I love bargains second-hand sales etc. I wore a fantastic Dinner jacket and pants for years that I found at a church sale. Cost $30, however it looked like a custom suit of clothes on me. Of course I love bargains...I'm Scottish!

3. I never said that all conversions are bad. I think many of the conversions look great and as Jamie said it doesn't need to be a PC to go with a kilt. I personally love Mess Jackets with the kilt and they are almost no work. I am jealous of some of the $5 jackets I see in threads turned into kilt jackets. I neither possess the skills to do it myself, nor can I find a tailor in NY who will do the job cheaply enough to make converting a $5 jacket worth it. I would personally love a Selkirk.

4. I never said something had to be made in Scotland to be good. I own many pieces of Highland attire from sources right here in the US.

5. While I gave my opinion in a general discussion like this one I would never go up to someone and tell them what I have said here, nor would I talk about them to others at a function. Obviously there are those reading this thread who may decide I have a negative opinion of certain items they have chosen to wear. If anyone is offended I am sorry but I think it would be dishonest if I didn't voice my opinion. Besides I doubt many care what I think anyway.

6. What I did say was that not all conversions look good. Not because they are not real PC's or because they were not made in Scotland but just because they were never quality goods to start with. Waiter's jackets by design are meant to be thrown into the wash. They are not lined and they don't have the form of a real jacket. They simply do not look formal because of the way there are made and no amount of trimming or fitting will make it happen. As the saying goes, "You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear".

7. What also bothers me is the idea that no one knows the difference because they are not used to seeing a kilt. This bothers me the most because if you think that you are just being disingenuous as well as wrong. First many people will notice that the garment is not good quality, hopefully they won't say it but they will notice.

Second, to me its like saying I can fool them as long as I wear the kilt. If you were not dressed in a kilt for a formal affair would you dress in a waiter's jacket and a pair of black dockers? Although I'm sure there are a few that might, most wouldn't. They would buy a tux or rent one or maybe not go at all. So to say I can get away with it because I am wearing a kilt really bothers me. I'm not saying everyone feels this way but I have seen the sentiment plenty of times on this forum.

8. While I share the love of wearing a kilt with the members of this forum, I don't share what I see as a sort of rebel view of dressing that I think many hold on this forum. I still hold to conventions that are probably dying as we speak. Some have said that it is what is inside a man that counts not what is on the outside, I couldn't agree more. However there is also a long held belief that you can tell a lot about a man by the way he dresses.

So am I a clothing snob? If the ideas above make me a clothing snob then I am proud to be one.

[ChromeScholar]

My reply has been sent by PM, so as not to hijack the thread any further.

[mbhandy]

Ultimately if the kilt looks good, and the jacket looks good, and the whole outfit works together and is appropriate to the occasion it really doesn't matter an iota where the outfit came from.

Cheers

Jamie

I totally agree.

MrBill