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14th January 08, 05:18 AM
#11
postin blootered eh?
int:
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14th January 08, 06:14 AM
#12
Thanks Arlen, I understand a little better what's going on with this now. The volcano thing threw me off a bit... I just can't quite grasp the heraldic symbology. Cave paintings, yes, totem, yes, but not the heraldry. I can't quite see the jungian meaning in it, and it seems... impersonal and maybe codified to the point of losing it's raw conection to the deep inner mind. I should clarify, I'm talking about the use of beasts in heraldry, and from an artistic point of view. That being said, I like my unicorns to be dainty and cute, and have one horn... the tufted tail and cloven hooves are fine, LOL!
Last edited by Bugbear; 14th January 08 at 06:38 AM.
I tried to ask my inner curmudgeon before posting, but he sprayed me with the garden hose…
Yes, I have squirrels in my brain…
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14th January 08, 07:28 AM
#13
I have a couple of questions from this post. Looking at the flags(?) in the center of the image, is the Scottish lion shown twice? And is this image that of the ruler of Great Britain or of the King of Scotland as noted on the first post in this thread?
And what's up with all those feathers??!! 
As many times as I have seen the famous Unicorn Tapestries at the Cloisters, I had never noticed those elements of a cloven hoof and beard. I shall have to look more closely the next time!
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14th January 08, 08:05 AM
#14
 Originally Posted by Galician
I have a couple of questions from this post. Looking at the flags(?) in the center of the image, is the Scottish lion shown twice? And is this image that of the ruler of Great Britain or of the King of Scotland as noted on the first post in this thread?
And what's up with all those feathers??!!
As many times as I have seen the famous Unicorn Tapestries at the Cloisters, I had never noticed those elements of a cloven hoof and beard.  I shall have to look more closely the next time!
This is the full heraldic achievement of Charles II (reigned 1660-85) as used in Scotland. The shield is divided into four parts (called quarters) each representing a different "kingdom". Quarters one and four are the royal arms of Scotland; quarter two is for England (France quartering England as Charles still laid claim to that kingdom) and quarter three is for Ireland.
When these arms were used in England, the first and fourth quarters showed the English royal arms; quarter two was Scotland and quarter three, Ireland.
The "feathers" are called mantling and represent the monarch's robes. In this instance crimson velvet lined with cloth of gold.
Stephen Friar is the author of "The Dictionary of Heraldry", which is an excellent place to begin the study of heraldry. Sir Malcolm Innes of Edingiht (a former Lord Lyon) authored "Scots Heraldry", and this is really the "jumping off point" if you are specifically interested in heraldry north of the Tweed.
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14th January 08, 08:13 AM
#15
 Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown
This is the full heraldic achievement of Charles II (reigned 1660-85) as used in Scotland. The shield is divided into four parts (called quarters) each representing a different "kingdom". Quarters one and four are the royal arms of Scotland; quarter two is for England (France quartering England as Charles still laid claim to that kingdom) and quarter three is for Ireland. When these arms were used in England, the first and fourth quarters showed the English royal arms; quarter two was Scotland and quarter three, Ireland.
The "feathers" are called mantling and represent the monarch's robes. In this instance crimson velvet lined with cloth of gold.
Thanks for that info. Let me just clarify something. This is the royal crest as used in Scotland? Is the duplication of a quarter done now only because the British monachs no longer lay claim to the Kingdom of France? (Does anybody? )
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14th January 08, 08:29 AM
#16
heraldric resources...
Stephen Friar is the author of "The Dictionary of Heraldry", which is an excellent place to begin the study of heraldry.
To further MacMillan's recomendation, Mr. Friar is also the co-author of a book entitled Basic Heraldry (with John Ferguson) -- I always recommend it to those beginning their study of the "gentle science".
Another title about Scottish Heraldry, the Heraldry Society of Scotland has published a booklet by Mark Dennis entitled simply Scottish Heraldry:
http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/scotinvit.html
I recommend it as well.
Regards,
Todd
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14th January 08, 08:50 AM
#17
 Originally Posted by chimera
Above the Royal Arms is a lion with 2 dirks. The unicorns are a form of lion, and are seen carved on Persian palaces and also:
Work: Plaque with horned lion-griffinsPlaque with horned lion-griffins. Work Information. Period:, Achaemenid (Persian). Museum:, Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, NY, United States ...
www.scholarsresource.com/browse/work/6969 - 9k - Cached - Similar pages .
This takes Scot Heraldry into a long tradition. Probably the Celtic goat-lion was lost to heraldic designers of the 15th century, but what they knew of it can still identify the original militant symbol.
I am going to address this in the order that you have posted:
1) The lion with two dirks is the crest of the Scottish monarch. It is shown affront as this is the most ferocious pose of the lion. The two dirks have been variously described as defending both the highlands and lowlands; the other suggests defending the realm against invaders from land or sea. Most likely it is a convention that adds balance to the design.
2) Unicorns are not related to lions in the same way that unicorns are not related to horses. Heraldically speaking they are distinct species of beasts (just as cows, squirrels, and kangaroos are distinct species in the real world).
3) Persian cave carvings have little or no relevance to heraldic practice. Heraldry (as generally defined) dates from the end of the 11th century, is confined almost exclusively to western Europe, and most scholars agree that it developed primarily as a method of marking personal property, and certifying legal documents.
4) Heraldry was not invented by heralds (or Persian scholars). It was invented by the land owning classes, and once it became wide spread, individuals were appointed to record and regulate the symbols used to identify everything from swords to plowshares.
5) I am unaware of any "celtic" goat-lion totem. That early celtic people held the salmon, boar, and hound, in high esteem is know to every herald in the British Isles. But the Goat-Lion? Sorry, never heard of it. Nor does the unicorn figure into any of the ancient gaelic sagas that I've heard of. But then I do not profess to be an expert in ancient gaelic myths.
Are there artistic similarities between some ancient Persian cave carvings and some heraldic beasts? Sure. But that doesn't mean they're related, separated as they are by thousands of miles and thousands of years.
Like Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. To which I'd add, they often come twelve to a box.
Last edited by MacMillan of Rathdown; 14th January 08 at 09:12 AM.
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14th January 08, 08:58 AM
#18
And, for me, Thurber's A Unicorn in the Garden is one of the best short stories ever written...
Ron
Ol' Macdonald himself, a proud son of Skye and Cape Breton Island
Lifetime Member STA. Two time winner of Utilikiltarian of the Month.
"I'll have a kilt please, a nice hand sewn tartan, 16 ounce Strome. Oh, and a sporran on the side, with a strap please."
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14th January 08, 09:03 AM
#19
 Originally Posted by Galician
This is the royal crest as used in Scotland? Is the duplication of a quarter done now only because the British monachs no longer lay claim to the Kingdom of France? (Does anybody?  )
Technically the crest is the bit on top of the helmet, while everything on the shield is referred to as the arms.
In the 19th century England gave up it's claim to France and the Royal Arms replaced the old quartering with that of England (gules three leopards passant).
In the last century the Monarch ended the practice of reversing the English and Scottish quarters in Scotland. Thus, in both kingdoms, the quarterings are now: England 1&4, Scotland 2, Ireland 3.
As an aside, when Victoria ascended the throne the arms of Hanover were removed from the Royal Arms as salic law prevented her from claiming the kingship of Hanover. The present Royal Arms date very much from this, post Hanovarian, achievement.
Last edited by MacMillan of Rathdown; 14th January 08 at 09:19 AM.
Reason: punctuation
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14th January 08, 01:04 PM
#20
Arlen,
It is most interesting that the unicorn may have pre-dated James 1. That would confirm its joint Scot and Cymri Celt tradition. The Gordon dragon is relevant here, and connects with the next reply.
MacMillan,
Lions have always been militant symbols and the joint goat-lion combines horns with it. To Greeks, billy-goat "krios" was a monster due to its charging with horns, and the battering ram on galleys was a "kriomachin" goat machine. The Greek hero Bellerophon riding Pegasus the winged horse, battled the goat-lion Chimera and "poured lead down its fiery throat and killed it". Lead bullets for sling-shots have been excavated in Greece. Chimera then became Mount Olympias volcano in "Turkey" and a guardian of the dead, keeping out the dishonest.
_ "Handbook Greek Myth" H Rose. p.83.
The horned-lion is carved on Persian palaces of 6th and
5th centuryBC, and the site I copied is of a gold ornament of that time, now in Metropolitan Museum NY. This dates from 2 centuries after the Homer legend of Chimera.
He wrote of Chimera being daughter of Kelto snake-woman,
daughter of Brettanos of Gaul._"Python-Delphic Myth" Fontenrose. UCal. 1959. p.97-9. (Diodorus 5.24 Parthenion Alcman 30). Kelto and Hercules produced Keltos, "the Celt".
Kelto was a viper, and Greek "dracos"means a snake, hence "dragon". The Chimera is on many artworks and was carved as a gold sculpture by the Etruscans in Italy 6th century BC. That connects with Rome and the time of Scots before they sailed across to the Highlands. Some Celts were in "Turkey" from 4th centuryBC and "Hungary" a century before, where Scythians also had moved in.
(this stuff gets me going...)
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