Cheap formal wear?

[kiltedcarpenter]

I've read this thread with some interest, and it seems to me that what is being discussed is etiquette on one hand, and manners on the other, and sometimes the two are confused. In this connection, I'd like to share with you all a quote from Quentin Crisp's excellent book "Manners From Heaven":

"Etiquette...is a form of exclusion, a system designed to make people (especially those not of one's "class") feel ill at ease and out of place. Manners, on the other hand...are a technique of inclusion, a way of ensuring that in our company no one will ever be made to feel that he is a outcast by reason of his birth, education or occupation. To drink from your fingerbowl may be a breach of etiquette, but if a host, seeing his guest make this mistake, did the same, it would be a sign of good manners."

Thank you for your comments! I found this after I wrote my previous post.Again I say,forgive me if I sound angry, but I have had my fill of "people" judging me because I dont have manicured fingernails.....

JakobT Thank you for this clarification and I hope others will take it to heart before they judge!

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

I keep forgetting to mention that "new" in Britain shows that you are not "old Highland". So, wearing old clothes, or second hand, looks as if you have been doing this for a while. Meaning the "highland inherited" is something which denoted that your family has been doing this for a while.

Despite the one comment about me wanting people to look like they escaped from a shortbread tin in another post, I am a little more giving about some things. One of which is how much your formal wear looks as if it were just purchased from Kinloch-Anderson.

When it comes to the "posing in costume", my attitude is that you have to steer from looking as if you just bought the outfit or escaped from a shortbread tin. On the other hand, you don't want to be in appropriate (e.g., wearing regular over the pictured calf socks v. kilt hose)


NO, you haven't offended me. On the other hand, I am curious as to why you haven't considered renting formal wear as you seem bothered by the concept or what people's opinion will be of your clothing?

[DWFII]

There must be some sort of middle ground in here somewhere. Personally, I don't think the distinction between manners and etiquette is all that significant. The definition of "manners" given above is a fair one and the example provided is very compelling but beyond that it gets more murky and, for me, misses the point altogether.

I think a better definition is that manners come from within and etiquette is an external codification of widely admired manners, formulated to make as many people feel comfortable as possible. To help people who might be a little "at sea" to feel more at ease--if you know some basic principles of etiquette, they will, in most cases, keep you from drinking from the fingerbowl.

On the other hand, no one should have to drink out of the fingerbowl even to make a guest seem less awkward. That the host does so indicates a generous spirit but it doesn't invalidate the gaff to begin with. Most conventions...etiquette included...are social "grease," if you will.

When it comes to kilts and highland dress, there are two points I think are important...first, it's all costume. That's why most of the books written about various styles of clothing have titles such as "Men's Costume in the 19th Century."

The second point is that whatever costume you wear, it makes things easier...socially...if you respect the costume and the traditions that inform it, and not try to put your own spin on it.

"The eye is not fooled"...this is a common saying in my line of work. Most people will know when the lintel is not square or a painting not hung straight. Even if they cannot put their finger on it, or articulate why, they will, on a subconscious level, feel a bit uneasy about something. This is a part of human nature that has its roots in our deepest instincts. From a time when a "wrongness" in the shadows might be a predator.

A person wearing a kilt well generates a whole lot less speculation and unease...because it fits our mental image of what looks right...than someone who is making it up as they go along. It doesn't have anything to do with "inclusion" or "exclusion" or "dirt under the fingernails." It has a lot to do with respect, and traditions, and putting others at ease. It can be just as unmannerly to flaunt the customs of your host as it is mannerly to put a guest at ease.

One last point...and I hope this is the most controversial point I make..I regret the impulse in our society to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator. Whether it is elitism or not, there is such a thing as "good, better, best." It may be relative (for some) but it is real. And recognizing that fact is the only way to guarantee personal growth. No craftsman can move from apprentice to master without acknowledging that there is a standard of work that transcends his own. And that's true at every level...even the master's level.

If you think about it, the same thing applies to the most mundane aspects of everyday life...even kilts.

[Mark Keeney]

I'm sorry if anything offended anyone. Please read the disclaimer I meant it:

"**disclaimer - I am just interested in a discussion and I am no way discounting or belittling the need or want for cheap formal wear**"

I'm not interested in judgements of anyone else, just how you personally feel when you wear what you wear.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

DWFII said it very well.

Mark you haven't offended anyone. Wearing inexpensive formal wear v. "Cheap" can be very satisfying if done correctly. Cheap can be anything which isn't up to standard (e.g., expensive designer, yet ugly, Lemon Yellow tail coat at a white tie function where the Queen is present).

If I have a well treated, second hand Geoffrey Tailor doublet that I bought for 50 quid, is it any worse quality than a brand new one that costs £500 (10x)?

Yes, there are certain standards, but there are also some latitude in those standards. Look at some of the variances in doublets in the 19th century.

[ThreadBbdr]

This is a discussion that is almost always in motion on the personal finance boards as well. What is "Frugal" vs what is "cheap". Perhaps the title of this thread should be "Frugal Formal Wear".

Because when you come right down to it, Frugal people care about quality as well as cost. Cheap people look only at the cost with no concern for quality or craftsmanship. Price vs Quality is always a balancing act and can/should be an individual judgement call.

Personally, I love the idea of continuing to use and love old things or making things using old tools and techniques. Cutting edge fashion means nothing to me and I'm constantly on the lookout for vintage and antique items for my home.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

Karla (ThreadBbdr ) is a good person to mention this as she is working on fixing up a vintage kilt that I won in a charity auction for me, which has become a prized possession.


So, old and/or inexpensive is not a reliable measure of "cheapness".

[Abax]

Whether it is elitism or not, there is such a thing as "good, better, best." It may be relative (for some) but it is real. And recognizing that fact is the only way to guarantee personal growth. No craftsman can move from apprentice to master without acknowledging that there is a standard of work that transcends his own. And that's true at every level...even the master's level.

Quite so. But I suspect successive generations - touched with a bit of cynicism - always believe standards are falling. I see it in my profession (whether it's real or not).

Offering encouragement to a child means the parent may not tell them right off that their finger painting is unremarkable. As you point out, you'll eventually have to be honest and communicate a standard if the artist is to advance. The standard, of course, is what we'll be discussing for a long time to come . . .

Abax

[DWFII]

Quite so. But I suspect successive generations - touched with a bit of cynicism - always believe standards are falling. I see it in my profession (whether it's real or not).

Offering encouragement to a child means the parent may not tell them right off that their finger painting is unremarkable. As you point out, you'll eventually have to be honest and communicate a standard if the artist is to advance. The standard, of course, is what we'll be discussing for a long time to come . . .

Abax

Not to get too far afield but I believe standards are falling. Techniques get lost, forgotten, or, in an excess of expediency, abandoned. And as they are lost the standards become ever more homogenized and marginalized.

I'm old fashioned, I admit it, but for me I would much rather aspire to do better than self-righteously defend what I know to be sub-par.

I was thinking about this whole business of waiters jackets and so forth after my last post and musing about why we wear kilts...

Someone on this forum (maybe several someones) posted a spirited defense of wearing kilts when many of us are neither Scots nor recently descended from Scots. The gist of it was that it is a way to honour our heritage, and by implication, although we may do it badly, it is a sign of respect.

I wonder whether one would feel comfortable wearing a cut-down waiters jacket to a audience with a clan chieftain? Or the fellow...Lord something or other...that approves tartans and all things Scottish?

More, I wonder if that Chieftain would feel that his customs and traditions...and maybe even person...were being respected if he knew the provenance of the jacket?

If there is a sizable number of native Scots who feel nothing but disdain for tourists gone all ga-ga over Scottish kitsch, they may well have a good reason when confronted by folks who feel it doesn't matter. Because even if, in the cosmic scheme of things, it really doesn't matter, it seems to me (personal opinion), nevertheless, a little disrespectful. And I'm not a native Scots.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

DWFII, sort of sounds like me when I lived in the WDC area and would go to Alexandria, VA's Scottish Walk to watch how people would dress. It was amazing how people would turn out (WWII RAF uniforms, people carrying flintlocks, etc.).

I am also one of those people who would expect some respect for Scottish heritage and custom if you wish to wear the kilt. That said, you don't need to be Scottish to do that. Just respect the culture.

While it is a costume, it isn't fancy dress (I.e., a masquerade costume chosen to suit the wearer's fancy).