How is Culloden and Prince Charles looked on and taught in Scotland?

[Fletch75]

All

I am reading "How the Scots Invented the Modern World" by Arthur Herman and he talks about the Jacobite uprising, Prince Charlie and Culloden.

He puts a pretty fair spin, it would seem, faulting both Prince Charlie for not really having a plan and how the English behaved after the battle towards the Highlanders.

My question is mainly for those of you in Scotland, How is this time period taught and looked at from your (the Scottish) standpoint. Do you get all the reasons things happened or do you get taught a purely "English" version of the story.

I'm sure the English don't teach how great the American Revolution was for them to their students.

Thank you,

I am constantly in search of knowledge.

Darin Wilt

[Jock Scot]

Oh, here we go again!Don't blame the English!Well, not for Culloden and its aftermath anyway.By all means blame the British,blame the House of Stuart,blame the House of Hanover,blame the French,blame Scots greed,blame Bonny Prince Charlie,blame The Duke of Cumberland(a Hanoverian) and blame just about anybody you can think of, but apart from individual English soldiers and English units,of the British army, who participated at that time,the English had very little to do with it.Don't forget that more Scots fought on the British side,at Culloden,than fought for the Jacobites.

[Phil]

Well it’s been a lot of years since I was at school but I don’t ever remember being taught anything about Bonnie Prince Charlie etc.. History lessons about Scotland seemed to concentrate more on people like Adam Smith the economist who wrote the Wealth of Nations and Robert Owen in New Lanark who ran his mill in an enlightened way compared to others at the time. The focus was more on the Industrial Revolution onwards and you are right, I remember little or nothing beyond mention of the Boston Tea Party being taught about the American Revolution. There was something about General Wolfe and Quebec but this was earlier and nothing to do with the revolution.
From a lowland Scottish viewpoint, Charlie and the Jacobites were not welcomed with open arms. Thousands of Scots had died in the previous century defending their religious beliefs against the forces of James II, Charlie’s grandfather, and they weren’t about to support a return to those times known as the “killing times”.
Billy Connolly aptly described Prince Charlie as "an effeminate, Itallian dwarf backed by hairy a***d Highlanders on Clydesdales" and that he could only speak Italian. Here is a humorous take on the subject by the late Rikki Fulton - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6hThhyAe94 - which probably reflects how many Scots regard Charlie.

[highlander_Daz]

In the school cirriculam, the battle of Culloden is not mentioned anywhere. Most Scots dont have a clue what happened at Culloden, people still labour under the misapprehension that it was an issue between England and Scotland, The conduct of the duke of Cumberland was nothing less than a war crime however it was desperate measures for desperate times, we have to be careful about applying 21st century values to 18th century situations. certainly it lead to the wipeing out of Highland culture, and the general persecution of Highland folk. Im not sure CES could only speak itailian, id be interested to know how he communiciated once he got here if that was the case, He must have had some kind of charisma, and the highland chiefs must have thought the there was something in it for them, despite his blunders, had he had the support of the Frence and not falled victim to duff intelegance he would have scored a comprehensive victory over the Brithish, However my own opinion is that the Frence would soon have turned the tables on CES. how this would have affected history ive no idea, the victoian era may never have happened, the Raj, the British empire, how WW1 or WW2 may have turned out Hitler occupied France with ease, would a Frence ruled Britain simply have rolled over? how would the american wars of independance have turned out against Frence-British forces, would they have happened at all? did france not side with George Washington? without the war would Washington been such an iconic figure in History? Culloden and CES were so pivotal to todays History.

[Piper]

This is a point in history that I find interesting. Before I began reading up on it, I too believed that it was an England vs Scotland event. If I understand the situation correctly now, a better description is that it was the House of Stuart trying to wrest the British Crown back from the House of Hanover. Regarding Bonnie Prince Charlie's linguistic abilities (I wish I could remember my source), I read that he spoke Italian, French, English and Polish. No mention of Gaelic though.
As to the French involvement, I get the impression that France viewed the occasion as one more chance to spit in England's soup. I have the same view regarding the American Revolution. I find it hard to believe that the French Monarchy had any great interest in the establishment of a Democratic Republic anywhere in the world.
The actions following the Battle of Culloden were certainly atrocious, but Daz has the right of it when he says that we shouldn't view 18th century events with 21st century standards. The Highland Clans behaved the same way towards each other periodically throughout history. The Acts of Proscription were an assault on Highland culture, but it is my understanding that they were unevenly enforced at best. I believe that the death knell for Highland life came from the "Clearances" a few years later.

[Fletch75]

All ,

Thank's already for the good posts. I do not place blame on any one. History is history and being in the military my self,I understand that its largely the leaders who are responsible for battles and actions, not the individual soldiers, on either side. The book I am reading does not make mention of the language ability of Charles except that he did not speak Gaelic. I do now that it was not an English./Scottish event but tow houses and yes, two religions vying for control of England/Scotland.

The lowlanders of the time were more capitalist and enlightened and also (largely) protestant. The Highlanders wanted to keep the clan system and the Clan chiefs that sided with Charlie saw him in charge as a way to keep their land holdings and titles. They also felt an obligation, it seems, to the stuarts and the way things used to be.

It seems France wanted to help, just like Piper said, to "spit in the English's soup." That's why the got involved in our revolution as well. If they couldn't have America, then neither could the English. After a few set backs,it seems they behave in their normal behavior and basically cut off their help, which forced Charles to act on his own and He didn't plan out his actions very well which caused the impending loss at Culloden.

I am looking forward to more about tis or any other History related items.

Thank you,

Darin
Fletch 75

[Jack Daw]

My great grandfather's great grandfather fought at Culloden and, I suppose because of his youth, he was transported to America rather than executed. I don't know the details. Regardless, I harbor no romantic notions about such a rebel cause.

From an American history point of view, very little was mentioned in my grade school about why so many people came to America. There was no mention of the transport of Scots by Cromwell, the Highland clearances or the Irish potato famine - just the tales of the pilgrims and other initial explorers and settlers. There's just not enough time to provide the details when the curriculum has to cover so much other subject matter.

[Pleater]

When CES and the Scots were in Derby the nobility and wealthy merchants of London were on the point of fleeing with whatever they could carry, for there was no way they could see of defending themselves in the usual way and expected CES to arrive within a couple of weeks at the latest.

However - the promises made by CES of French support had come to nothing, and they were a long way from home. Perhaps without the promises and knowing they had to rely on their own resources they would have been more resolute? Perhaps if both the Prince's ships had made the journey from France, instead of one being chased away by an English ship and the money it contained was lost to the cause - perhaps, perhaps...

They were already rebelling against the Princes authority when a man arrived to inform them that a considerable number of soldiers were blocking their way to London, and more were marching to join them. At this the Prince's commanders decided to return to Scotland.

The man with information, however, was an English agent, and his news of an English army was a total fabrication.

British history unfolded entirely differently due to that incident - if - for instance, a French spy had traveled from London to meet CES and reported to the commanders that the road to the capital was open and undefended, the Stuart kings might have ruled here, though who knows for how long?

[sirdaniel1975]

Fletch75,

This is by far a very interesting topic. I suggest reading Magnus Magnusson's book - Scotland: A Story of A Nation. He does write about the lack of Scottish History taught in schools in Scotland. He also brings up the valid issue that since the new Scottish Parliament; Scottish History and Culture courses are being added to curriculum in Schools and Colleges. Whether this is true, I don't know... I'm an American.

One of the more interesting educational points he brings up, is that for many generations, William Wallace was left out of some of the earliest books on Scottish History.

[Fletch75]

Sir Daniel and Jack Daw,

I agree that we have too much history to teach in a small time frame ourselves as Americans. We Just get the basics but its scary how little people know about important things. You see it all the time on Leno and Letterman, when they ask questions to passersby about history.

As far as learning why things happen that is high school and college level stuff. Everything before that is usually just dates and names. And we all usually have our family stories of why our ancestors came to America which can't be put in a book or class.

Having access to native Scots and people in other countries I find it interesting what they learn about subjects, be it our History or their own.

Thanks,

Darin