Bogus commercial heraldry....

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 12th June 08, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by O'Neille

Are the "legitimate sources" any less "commercial". Most of what is required is a "domicile" and a direct male line of descent. Once that is established it's a matter of paying up the money. And by golly, you've just bought yourself a COA. Or for twice the money you can get a new one.

While I cannot speak for the practices of the College of Arms as they are a private body, I should point out that in Scotland and Ireland the statutory fees are set by the government, and merely cover the actual costs of creating and recording the Letters Patent. Whilst it may seem smug to suggest that a coat of arms is "bought", that is far from the truth. Both the Lyon Court and the Office of Arms in Dublin have fairly rigorous standards for both the granting of "de novo" arms and the confirmation of existing arms by right of descent.

Originally Posted by O'Neille

Historically, 1483 is the magic year for the College of Arms. 1318 inception and 1672 official records for the Court of the Lord Lyon. Finally, the Chief Herald of Ireland in Dublin (a division of the National Library) since 1552. You will find many examples of COAs predating these by hundreds of years. I guess you just took your chances before it all became civilized.

As far as the antiquity of the Irish Office of Arms is concerned, the first Ireland King of Arms was John Chandos (appointed by Richard II in 1392) followed by John Othelake who succeeded to the office in 1393. The next Herald of note was John Kitely, whose date of appointment is unknown, but who was in office in 1420. Heralds continued to be appointed for the next 50 years at least, until the office seems to have lapsed in 1487, being revived with the appointment of Bartholomew Butler as Ulster King of Arms by Edward VI in February of 1552. In 1943 the office and authority of Ulster King of Arms was handed over to the Irish Government who have continued the work of devising and granting arms throughout the whole of Ireland, and to the Irish diaspora abroad.