I'm not Scottish

[Downix]

The way I always put it is, "Not Scottish? Don't let that get in the way of being a Scot."

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

It is apples and oranges, lads. Apples and oranges. Citizenship has nothing to do with ethnic background and everything to do with lawful domicile. A Mongolian, moving from Ulan Bator to Dublin, may acquire Irish citizenship, but that does not make him Irish.

Being "Scottish" in the sense it is being discussed here, refers to having a specific ethnic and cultural background, not the mere fact of lawful domicile. I always find it interesting (and somewhat flattering) when someone on this forum identifies himself as "Scottish" on the basis of having discovered an ancestor who came to the new world from Scotland perhaps 300 or more years ago. But I also find it a bit shall I say, disappointing?, when an individual with a diverse ethnic/cultural background rather vociferously proclaims his Scottishness without any apparent cultural investment in the Scottish community.

How can one claim to be "Scottish" or to be a member of a clan, that most defining element of Scottish culture, without even the most basic involvement in the clan unit, as constituted today in clan societies? Even the now disgraced professor and "American Indian" Ward Churchill, went to the trouble to join a tribal association to lend some credence to his spurious claims of aboriginal antecedents.

I think there is something of the social gadfly (and possibly a bit of disingenuousness) in the individual who trots out a seemingly endless array of diverse ethnic forebearers and then, like some sort of genealogical smorgasbord, chooses the convenient ethnicity of the moment. Especially when there is possibly little or no regard, understanding, or respect, for the cultural and ethnic values of the assumed identity.

It is ethnic and cultural descent, along with the willingness to maintain cultural identity and traditions that makes a Scot a Scot, and not a Gerrman or Soiux. Residence or place of birth have nothing to do with it at all.

[Jordan]

I techcnicaly am Scottish due to the fact that my parents and were born here, so on forms I fill in where I have to put something scot goes in the gap. However the other. 9/10 of the time I am Me currently living in Scotland doing my own thing (more often than not recently in a kilt) I honestly don't care. If you call yourself a swashbuckling pirate from mars aslong as we can get along and mayb have a nice quiet drink when you visit

Jordan

[O'Callaghan]

It is apples and oranges, lads. Apples and oranges. Citizenship has nothing to do with ethnic background and everything to do with lawful domicile. A Mongolian, moving from Ulan Bator to Dublin, may acquire Irish citizenship, but that does not make him Irish. Being "Scottish" in the sense it is being discussed here, refers to having a specific ethnic and cultural background, not the mere fact of lawful domicile. I always find it interesting (and somewhat flattering) when someone on this forum identifies himself as "Scottish" on the basis of having discovered an ancestor who came to the new world from Scotland perhaps 300 or more years ago. But I also find it a bit shall I say, disappointing?, when an individual with a diverse ethnic/cultural background rather vociferously proclaims his Scottishness without any apparent cultural investment in the Scottish community. How can one claim to be "Scottish" or to be a member of a clan, that most defining element of Scottish culture, without even the most basic involvement in the clan unit, as constituted today in clan societies? Even the now disgraced professor and "American Indian" Ward Churchill, went to the trouble to join a tribal association to lend some credence to his spurious claims of aboriginal antecedents. I think there is something of the social gadfly (and possibly a bit of disingenuousness) in the individual who trots out a seemingly endless array of diverse ethnic forebearers and then, like some sort of genealogical smorgasbord, chooses the convenient ethnicity of the moment. Especially when there is possibly little or no regard, understanding, or respect, for the cultural and ethnic values of the assumed identity. It is ethnic and cultural descent, along with the willingness to maintain cultural identity and traditions that makes a Scot a Scot, and not a Gerrman or Soiux. Residence or place of birth have nothing to do with it at all.

Well, if your horse isn't even winded, then let's have a look at some of those statements.

Your man from Ulan Bator is Irish if he has been naturalised, but he's an ethnic Mongolian (and probably still actually Mongolian as well). If someone has jumped through the various required government hoops, then who are we to say that they aren't Irish, or whatever. Some may, but IMHO that's rather churlish. Me, I'm only ethnic Irish, not Irish, but your man has the passport.

What sense are we discussing Scottishness in? I didn't think that had been agreed.

Granted, there's no Scottish citizenship any longer, but I don't think we can only look at whether someone is an ethnic Scot. If someone is a British citizen and can claim to be one via someone born in Scotland, even if they have another, better, claim because, for example, they themself were born in some other part of the UK, then they are Scottish, and even if they live in Ulan Bator and have never lived in Scotland, saying that they are not is likely to be dangerous to your health, LOL!

If you can't claim that, but you have some Scots blood somewhere, then you are an ethnic Scot. Whether you 'pay your dues' by joining a clan society and hanging out with other ethnic Scots is irrelevant. It doesn't make you any more or less Scottish, although I can see that it may make you feel more Scottish. Even a hatred for kilts and haggis makes no difference, LOL. Blood is thicker than water, as they say.

It is precisely the fraud who feels they can only carry it off if they join a society, although that's not an adverse comment on the majority who are genuine and sign up for such a group.

I have no axe to grind here, because I am not a Scot in any sense, AFAIK.

The gadfly thing is amusing. Yes, some people are a variegated mix of all manner of ethnicities, but if they choose to identify as ethnically Scottish this week and ethnically Swedish next week, what does it really matter? It might matter if there was a war between the different groups, heaven forbid, but otherwise it's their own business. Americans are perhaps more prone to this, but that's the whole 'nation of immigrants' thing. You are who you are, and if people can't work out what they are and don't know much about, say, their Scots heritage, how can we blame them for a mere accident of birth?

[O'Callaghan]

I honestly don't care. If you call yourself a swashbuckling pirate from mars aslong as we can get along and mayb have a nice quiet drink when you visit

Jordan

I'll drink to that!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Well, if your horse isn't even winded, then let's have a look at some of those statements.

Your man from Ulan Bator is Irish if he has been naturalised, but he's an ethnic Mongolian (and probably still actually Mongolian as well). If someone has jumped through the various required government hoops, then who are we to say that they aren't Irish, or whatever. Some may, but IMHO that's rather churlish. Me, I'm only ethnic Irish, not Irish, but your man has the passport.

What sense are we discussing Scottishness in? I didn't think that had been agreed.

Granted, there's no Scottish citizenship any longer, but I don't think we can only look at whether someone is an ethnic Scot. If someone is a British citizen and can claim to be one via someone born in Scotland, even if they have another, better, claim because, for example, they themself were born in some other part of the UK, then they are Scottish, and even if they live in Ulan Bator and have never lived in Scotland, saying that they are not is likely to be dangerous to your health, LOL!

If you can't claim that, but you have some Scots blood somewhere, then you are an ethnic Scot. Whether you 'pay your dues' by joining a clan society and hanging out with other ethnic Scots is irrelevant. It doesn't make you any more or less Scottish, although I can see that it may make you feel more Scottish. Even a hatred for kilts and haggis makes no difference, LOL. Blood is thicker than water, as they say.

It is precisely the fraud who feels they can only carry it off if they join a society, although that's not an adverse comment on the majority who are genuine and sign up for such a group.

I have no axe to grind here, because I am not a Scot in any sense, AFAIK.

The gadfly thing is amusing. Yes, some people are a variegated mix of all manner of ethnicities, but if they choose to identify as ethnically Scottish this week and ethnically Swedish next week, what does it really matter? It might matter if there was a war between the different groups, heaven forbid, but otherwise it's their own business. Americans are perhaps more prone to this, but that's the whole 'nation of immigrants' thing. You are who you are, and if people can't work out what they are and don't know much about, say, their Scots heritage, how can we blame them for a mere accident of birth?

You have missed the point. Re-read the first paragraph of my posting.

[Bugbear]

I'm a New Mexican living in Arizona; two regions with unique cultures, and interesting historys. I grew up being told that I have "Scottish and Irish blood," but not too much else about it.
Sometimes I think of the Scots on the forum, like Jock Scot, who are watching all this discussion about what "Scottish" is, and I wonder if this is all going on at another forum about who is a real New Mexican because their great, great grandfathers were from Santa Fe and T or C.

For some reason, I doubt there are many Scots over in Scotland claiming to be "cowboys" or what ever the world calls us out here in the Southwest. I could be completely wrong about that though. Still, we all bring a bit of our own cultures to this forum even though it's centered around a Scottish garment... Strange.

[macwilkin]

For some reason, I doubt there are many Scots over in Scotland claiming to be "cowboys" or what ever the world calls us out here in the Southwest. I could be completely wrong about that though.

Yep, you're wrong!

www.cowboyceltic.com

http://www.highlandclearances.info/c...d_bandanas.htm

todd

[beloitpiper]

For some reason, I doubt there are many Scots over in Scotland claiming to be "cowboys" or what ever the world calls us out here in the Southwest. I could be completely wrong about that though. Still, we all bring a bit of our own cultures to this forum even though it's centered around a Scottish garment... Strange.

Cowboys, as I learned from Arlen on my visit to Glasgow, are very popular in Scotland. There was a big display on southwestern culture in the Kelvingrove museum. Did you they have their own Opry in Glasgow?

[macwilkin]

Cowboys, as I learned from Arlen on my visit to Glasgow, are very popular in Scotland. There was a big display on southwestern culture in the Kelvingrove museum. Did you they have their own Opry in Glasgow?

See the links above, Greg, which highlight the connection between Scottish drovers and North American cowboys.

T.