Saw Pipe Major insignia on Prince Charlie Jacket

[Peter C.]

While the "rules" have changed a great deal since the 60's, there is still a significant segment of our society which demands, not asks, that the "rules" be followed. I had constant dealings with them before I retired, and always dressed to their standards. (I was asking for money!). My general rule was; It is better to err on the side a "traditional" than go too far the other way. (I always a wore a three piece outfit, not always matching colours but always tried to look "conservative" doing so.)

To my mind (and taste) there is nothing more traditional than the "tank". That is why I think the piper in question is a bit overdone. Especially with the rank on the sleeves. If it were a military mess jacket, then the rank would be appropriate. Is it?

Considering how many pipers dress, with plaid, broach, cross belt, feather bonnet and dirk, it seems a little strange to suggest that a piper "is a bit overdone".

It certainly looks like a mess jacket, and if it is and if the gent is still in the military, then it is not just appropriate to wear his rank on the mess jacket, it is a requirement.

Peter

[Bugbear]

Someone said that mess jacket looks like a PC. Is a mess jacket worn with a waistcoat?

Just trying to extract information from the conversations...

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Someone said that mess jacket looks like a PC. Is a mess jacket worn with a waistcoat?

Just trying to extract information from the conversations...

Short answer is "yes". Mess jackets usually have the body in one colour (often red in the British army) with the lapels (and sometimes the cuffs) in a different colour, defining the regiment. Waistcoats are often black, although red is by no means uncommon. A few mess jackets fasten at the neck, similar to a Sherrifmuir jacket, and have a "bib" underneath, again in a contrasting colour.

Costello & Son in Ilford, London, supply much of the mess dress to the British forces (including RAF, Royal Marines, Royal Navy, the Royal Household, etc.), and examples can be seen on their website.

[Bugbear]

Short answer is "yes". Mess jackets usually have the body in one colour (often red in the British army) with the lapels (and sometimes the cuffs) in a different colour, defining the regiment. Waistcoats are often black, although red is by no means uncommon. A few mess jackets fasten at the neck, similar to a Sherrifmuir jacket, and have a "bib" underneath, again in a contrasting colour.

Costello & Son in Ilford, London, supply much of the mess dress to the British forces (including RAF, Royal Marines, Royal Navy, the Royal Household, etc.), and examples can be seen on their website.

Thank you, that is very helpful.

[macwilkin]

It certainly looks like a mess jacket, and if it is and if the gent is still in the military, then it is not just appropriate to wear his rank on the mess jacket, it is a requirement.

Peter

Rank yes...trade badges, though, aren't usually worn with mess dress, are they? Does one wear a piper/signaller/musketry badge on their mess kit?

For example, I'm looking at present at a depiction of the RCMP officer's mess dress, and the only insignia being worn are rank badges (pips and crowns) and the buffalo head collar dogs of the RCMP on the collars.

Rathdown: did you notice that the waistcoat is tartan (Erskine, I believe, which would make this gentleman a member of the old RHF, an amalgamation of the old HLI and RSF) -- I can't remember seeing any of the Scottish regiments wearing a tartan waistcoat with mess dress.

Regards,

Todd

[Tim Little]

... did you notice that the waistcoat is tartan (Erskine, I believe, which would make this gentleman a member of the old RHF, an amalgamation of the old HLI and RSF)...

Sounds about right, Todd.

From http://www.coastalscottish.com/Great...ers%20Web1.htm:

In 1984 Gordon enlisted in the Royal Highland Fusiliers (Princess Margaret's Own Glasgow and Ayrshire Regiment) and started his training as a junior piper at Bridge of Don. He was a very successful competitor in Junior and Amateur solo piping competitions around Scotland and while training at Aberdeen, he won his first major piping competition and the same year his Silver Medal for Piobaireachd at The Argyllshire Gathering at Oban (the youngest ever at the age of 16)

After completing his training, Gordon was posted to the 1st Battalion in West Berlin in 1986. During steady progress through the piping ranks, Pipe Sergeant Walker was invited to attend the Pipe Major's Course at Edinburgh Castle under Major J M Allan and Major GNM Stoddard, BEM. Gordon achieving distinguished honours in both theoretical and practical piping.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

It certainly looks like a mess jacket, and if it is and if the gent is still in the military, then it is not just appropriate to wear his rank on the mess jacket, it is a requirement.

Peter

It looks like a mess jacket, and I'm sure that was the intent-- to convey the spirit of a military piper-- but it isn't a regimental mess jacket. It appears to be an Eaton jacket with a shawl collar, worn with a civilian kilt, civilian sporran, and civilian waistcoat. Admittedly the jacket is adorned with all sorts of military insignia, but even so it is merely a costume, worn to enhance the visual impact of the (admittedly world class) performance. There is a world of difference between performing on stage and wearing a military uniform. That being the case, I think the performer has struck the right balance in selecting his costume.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Rank yes...trade badges, though, aren't usually worn with mess dress, are they? Does one wear a piper/signaller/musketry badge on their mess kit?

For example, I'm looking at present at a depiction of the RCMP officer's mess dress, and the only insignia being worn are rank badges (pips and crowns) and the buffalo head collar dogs of the RCMP on the collars.

Rathdown: did you notice that the waistcoat is tartan (Erskine, I believe, which would make this gentleman a member of the old RHF, an amalgamation of the old HLI and RSF) -- I can't remember seeing any of the Scottish regiments wearing a tartan waistcoat with mess dress.

Regards,

Todd

Hi Todd--

Yes, I noticed the waistcoat, but couldn't make out the tartan. Like yourself, I can't recall any regiments wearing a tartan waistcoat.

Given that the piper is wearing a costume, albeit with a nod to Scottish military fashion, I can certainly understand his wearing rank and trade designations-- it makes him more interesting to look at as he stands "stalk still" on stage.

It may be good showmanship, but it certainly isn't militarily correct, or acceptable as civilian formal attire.

Regards (and congratulations for a job well done as a moderator),
Scott

[JSFMACLJR]

Could Pipe Major Walker be wearing a uniform of the 52nd Lowland Regiment TA Pipe Band, which in 2007 became a civilian band known as the Mauchline & District Caledonia Pipe Band?

I add this bio of Walker for your interest:
Pipe Major Gordon J. Walker

Gordon started piping at the age of four and a half with the late PipeMajor David Kay from Cumnock in Ayrshire who was a brilliant tutor. He stayed with him right up until the age of sixteen. He comes from a piping background with two uncles who were pipers in the Scots Guards, and it was inevitable he follow in their footsteps and so he enlisted as a boy soldier in The Royal Highland Fusiliers (Princes Margaret's own Glasgow and Ayrshire Regiment).

He was sent for training to Bridge of Don Aberdeen where he came under the guidance of Pipe Major Iain M. Morrison (Queen's Own highlanders) and spent two years with him there before joining The Battalion in West Berlin. Steady progress through the ranks followed when Gordon was invited to take the Pipe Major's certificate at Edinburgh Castle passing with Distinguished honours. He saw active service in The Gulf war in 1991 and operational tours of duty in Bosnia 1995 and Northern Ireland in 1996 with his regiment. He had Piobaireachd tuition from the late Captain Andrew Pitkeathly (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders), a former personal piper to HM Queen Elizabeth II and Director of Army Bagpipe Music.

In 1999 after sixteen years service he left The Army and decided on a change of career into teaching, passing on his knowledge and concentrate on solo work. He joined the staff of The College of Piping as the senior instructor, then transferred to the National Piping centre as the senior instructor and spent five happy years there. In January of 2005 he left the Centre to take up the post as Piping instructor with St. Columba's school's piping programme in Renfrewshire. He is confident in providing the young boy's and girl's with their piping education, introducing new and exciting ideas that will enhance not only their repertoire but give them the chance to go forward into their future piping endeavours in this new millennium.

At the end of 2002 he was approached by the Commanding Officer of the 52nd Lowland Regiment T.A. to come back into uniform and rebuild and structure the Regimental Pipes and Drums, They were very successful during a period of five years then owing to Army constraints and preasures the band decided to move into civilian ranks in 2007 and are now known as The Mauchline & District Caledonia Pipe Band Gordon a seasoned competitor and prolific major prize-winner with Gold medals, silver stars and clasps from all the top Gatherings many several times over.

In 2007 his most notable achievements were 1st place in the senior Piobaireachd at the Argyllshire Gathering, 3rd place in the former winners M/S/R at The Argyllshire Gathering High placings at The Scottish Piping Society of London and was overall winner in The Glenfiddich Piping Championships at Blair Castle. This year 2008 Gordon was placed 1st in the Piobaireachd event at The Pipe Major Donald MacLeod Memorial invitational

He has many recordings to his credit including C.D.s, D.V.Ds and radio broadcasts with more planned for this year. He is known internationally as a competitor, recitalist, tutor and adjudicator.

[planemaker]

Paul,
That is the video I was talking about in my previous post, and while the jacket he's wearing does look like a mess jacket, for the life of me I couldn't figure out what regiment it was supposed to be. The jacket appears to black with black facings-- not worn by any Scottish regiment that I am familiar with, nor does his kilt seem to be of any regimental pattern. This (along with the civilian sporran), added to the fact that he's piping on stage, led me to assume that he's in a costume. He looks good on stage, isn't wearing anything he isn't entitled to (I guess??), and delivers visually (as well as audibly) exactly what the audience wants and expects.

I think this underscores both of our opinions that band or military trade insignia has no place on civilian attire-- unless, of course, one is a world class piper performing on stage!

Best regards,
Scott

Hi Scott,

I looked at the website for the "The Royal Regiment of Scotland" and I think that he is wearing mess kit for the 1st Battalion.

There are several different classes of badges in the "British/Canadian/Commonwealth armies". Rank, Appointment, Trade, and Qualification Badges.

1. Rank Badges denote rank......obviously.
2. Appointment denotes an appointment that the person holds.....MP Brassards, Aide-de-camp badges/braid, Drum and Pipe Majors. The person can wear that insignia as long as they hold the appointment.
3. Trade badges are to indicate your military trade. Infantryman, Band, Piper, Mechanic, Artificer, etc. They are worn on the lower cuff of the dress uniform.
4. Qualification badges denote a qualification, ie Parachutist, Pilot, Diver, EOD, etc. Usually the most senior badge is worn over the Left Breast.

It looks like he was wearing the following: Piper (trade), Crown (British Army (Staff Sergeant/Platoon Sergeant, although it is normally worn with three cheverons, so that is a 80% sure guess. In the Canadian Army that rank would be Warrant Officer) and Pipe Major (Appointment).