St. Patrick's Day Kilt Attire

[fluter]

A very American point of view if you don't mind me saying. Still, your optimistic future might happen sometime... the temperature dropping in Hell yet?

Well, Tuesday's overnight temp in Columbia, SC was 28F... it's not quite time for our annual real-estate comparisons with Hades, but we're having a good hot-and-cold running February.

[beloitpiper]

A very American point of view if you don't mind me saying. Still, your optimistic future might happen sometime... the temperature dropping in Hell yet?

My time in Belfast over the summer was marked by meeting people with a surprising sense of excitement and optimism about the future. So I must disagree about it being an American point of view. If anything, I think Americans are more militant about the whole thing. My friends in Belfast (from all political persuations) were glad to see peace. There are children in Northern Ireland right now that have never known war! How awesome is that?!?

[Declan Rowan]

There are children in Northern Ireland right now that have never known war! How awesome is that?!?

Amen to that. Was in Derry leading a tour group this past spring, and was glad to see the changes even in the last 5-10 years. Hope that this is just the beginning....

[O'Callaghan]

But they do! As a Young Ambassador sent to Northern Ireland over the summer by the Friends of St. Patrick, I have to say "What better person to unite Ireland than St. Patrick?!?" A Briton that came to Ireland to spread Christianity! He's a figure that both Protestants and Catholics can support. Even as an atheist, I love St. Patrick as a symbol of bringing two historically divided communities together. He's the great Uniter!

Actually, I had heard that there were representatives of the NI protestants in a St. Patrick's Day event there. OTOH, there are statistically 0% nationalists among NI protestants, so I can't picture them wearing the green. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily at odds with the saint, although some of them would identify him with catholicism.

Obviously, the event was for peace and reconcilliation, etc., but like it or not that isn't what the green stands for, although neither does it stand for St. Patrick. It stands for Irish nationalism, and they would interpret that as meaning being in favour of a united Ireland, whereas in the Republic it can mean merely patriotism without necessarily having that connotation, and there are some protestants there too, albeit not so many.

[Kilted Jeeper]

I am still new here, but I just wanted to point out how wonderful I think it is that even a thread as mundane as "St. Patrick's Day kilt Attire" can be so historically educational. I just wish I found XMARKS sooner!!!

Thanks all.

[thanmuwa]

Nevertheless, it is correct to wear "St. Patrick's Blue" on St. Patrick's Day. Whilst the custom has fallen out of favour and been replaced by the ubiquitous green, vestiges still remain -- for example, the "micks", the Irish Guards of the Household Division wear a light blue hackle on their bearskins.

I am not sure what you mean by correct. There is no Irish custom that I know of (and I probably would have noticed) of wearing any particular colour on St. Patrick's Day, so a jumper in St Patrick's blue is just as correct or incorrect as a red shirt. Traditional clothes in Ireland were not brightly coloured anyway. The most traditional thing I can think of wearing (ie what my grandad, his dad, probably his dad's dad and so on, would have worn) would be a white shirt, tie (maybe pushing the boat out with some green on the tie!), dark suit and most importantly a sprig of shamrock on the lapel...

Oh, and IMHO most Irish people don't really go in for the idea of "correctness" in that sense. However green (or blue, or any other non-beer colour) beer is ALWAYS wrong!

Yes, I did mention that St Patrick's Blue, as a symbol of Ireland, is pretty much confined to very outdated flags (as your article correctly mentions, it is on the President's flag, the Leinster flag etc). Wearing it as a symbol of Ireland for St Patrick's day would be deliberately anachronistic.
And the Irish Guards are no more a reflection of modern Ireland than Uncle Tom is a reflection of modern black culture. As evidenced by the fact that they are happy to be called "Micks".

My time in Belfast over the summer was marked by meeting people with a surprising sense of excitement and optimism about the future. So I must disagree about it being an American point of view. If anything, I think Americans are more militant about the whole thing. My friends in Belfast (from all political persuations) were glad to see peace. There are children in Northern Ireland right now that have never known war! How awesome is that?!?

I think we are talking at cross purposes. Having lived in Belfast from the mid 90's until the early noughties, I have seen those changes too. Optimism exists. It is truly brilliant, and those kids who have grown up outside the Troubles will be the ones to bring both sides together (IMHO the bitterness is too ingrained in the older generations). However, I think that the kind of optimism that would allow what was and is a strong symbol of Irishness, St. Patrick, to suddenly become a symbol of both sides is still a bit away. Perhaps almost as far away as a parade to celebrate the Twelfth of July in Cork City Centre......
And I know what you mean about militant Americans, (Irish-)Americans have always been like that about the whole situation. But then, it is always easier to be militant when you are sitting nice and safe on a plush soft sofa in Boston without Resurrection Man waiting outside your door!

[macwilkin]

I am not sure what you mean by correct. There is no Irish custom that I know of (and I probably would have noticed) of wearing any particular colour on St. Patrick's Day, so a jumper in St Patrick's blue is just as correct or incorrect as a red shirt. Traditional clothes in Ireland were not brightly coloured anyway. The most traditional thing I can think of wearing (ie what my grandad, his dad, probably his dad's dad and so on, would have worn) would be a white shirt, tie (maybe pushing the boat out with some green on the tie!), dark suit and most importantly a sprig of shamrock on the lapel...

Oh, and IMHO most Irish people don't really go in for the idea of "correctness" in that sense. However green (or blue, or any other non-beer colour) beer is ALWAYS wrong!

Yes, I did mention that St Patrick's Blue, as a symbol of Ireland, is pretty much confined to very outdated flags (as your article correctly mentions, it is on the President's flag, the Leinster flag etc). Wearing it as a symbol of Ireland for St Patrick's day would be deliberately anachronistic.
And the Irish Guards are no more a reflection of modern Ireland than Uncle Tom is a reflection of modern black culture. As evidenced by the fact that they are happy to be called "Micks".

"The Micks" is their regimental nickname; you'll need to take it up with them. A good friend of mine worked with them whilst stationed in the UK, so I'm sure he could put you in touch with some of them, though I doubt you'd like their response to your comments.

From their web site:

The Irish Guards' first honorary Colonel-of-the-Regiment was Field Marshal Lord Roberts, known to many troops as "Bobs". Because of this, the regiment gained the nickname "Bob's Own" but are now known affectionately as "The Micks" (this term is not seen as offensive or derogatory by the regiment.)

-- http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regiments/9608.aspx

By "correct", I mean historically correct. You seem to imply that just because something is "anachronistic", it is somehow wrong or incorrect. There is documentation for blue being a traditional colour associated with St. Patrick, that's all.

Regards,

Todd

[O'Callaghan]

I am not sure what you mean by correct. There is no Irish custom that I know of (and I probably would have noticed) of wearing any particular colour on St. Patrick's Day, so a jumper in St Patrick's blue is just as correct or incorrect as a red shirt. Traditional clothes in Ireland were not brightly coloured anyway. The most traditional thing I can think of wearing (ie what my grandad, his dad, probably his dad's dad and so on, would have worn) would be a white shirt, tie (maybe pushing the boat out with some green on the tie!), dark suit and most importantly a sprig of shamrock on the lapel...

Oh, and IMHO most Irish people don't really go in for the idea of "correctness" in that sense. However green (or blue, or any other non-beer colour) beer is ALWAYS wrong!

Yes, I did mention that St Patrick's Blue, as a symbol of Ireland, is pretty much confined to very outdated flags (as your article correctly mentions, it is on the President's flag, the Leinster flag etc). Wearing it as a symbol of Ireland for St Patrick's day would be deliberately anachronistic.
And the Irish Guards are no more a reflection of modern Ireland than Uncle Tom is a reflection of modern black culture. As evidenced by the fact that they are happy to be called "Micks".



I think we are talking at cross purposes. Having lived in Belfast from the mid 90's until the early noughties, I have seen those changes too. Optimism exists. It is truly brilliant, and those kids who have grown up outside the Troubles will be the ones to bring both sides together (IMHO the bitterness is too ingrained in the older generations). However, I think that the kind of optimism that would allow what was and is a strong symbol of Irishness, St. Patrick, to suddenly become a symbol of both sides is still a bit away. Perhaps almost as far away as a parade to celebrate the Twelfth of July in Cork City Centre......
And I know what you mean about militant Americans, (Irish-)Americans have always been like that about the whole situation. But then, it is always easier to be militant when you are sitting nice and safe on a plush soft sofa in Boston without Resurrection Man waiting outside your door!

I'd second the opinion that the Irish don't give a fig for 'correctness'. I see that as a good thing. There are no Irish 'kilt police', LOL!

As for a 12th of July celebration in Cork City Centre, we both know that will never happen, not least because there's no-one there of that persuasion. I'm sure that was your point, but I'm not sure that everyone gets it.

I was just recently conversing with someone in Ireland on another board, and she implied that most there would only like a united Ireland in theory, but don't really want it in practice, really preferring that Northern Ireland remain someone else's problem. The militants might not be happy about that, but I think it's the majority view, at least on the quiet.

[macwilkin]

I'd second the opinion that the Irish don't give a fig for 'correctness'. I see that as a good thing. There are no Irish 'kilt police', LOL!

May I just make one thing clear? Greg mentioned earlier that a light blue, also known as St. Patrick's Blue, is traditionally associated with the saint. I confirmed it as "correct". That's all. I'm not implying that one is "incorrect" if they wear green, only that there is such a "creature" as St. Patrick's Blue, and there is some remnants of it today, such as the Irish Guards hackle. That's all.

Todd

[Jack Daw]

I will use St. Patrick's Day to don my caubeen and O'More cap badge for my mother. What kilt I wear, I don't know yet.