Why all the negative comments on Flat Caps?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

My bottom line is, I don't really have the desire to own a Balmoral or a Glengarry, as a person of primarily Irish heritage they don't have much cultural resonance with me. But I'm bald, and I do like to keep covered outdoors. So I mostly wear a flatcap.

I noticed when this debate was raging the first time that, almost without exception, those who thought the flat cap looked ok with the kilt were from North America, while those who thought it a no-no were from the UK.

The flat-cap, it seems, has different cultural connotations on either side of the Atlantic. Nothing wrong with that.

But I did find your above remark about Scottish caps not resonating with you because your heritage is Irish.... um... but isn't that a kilt you are wearing in the photo?

I don't understand why, as a person of Irish heritage, you would feel uncomfortable in a Scottish cap, yet perfectly comfortable wearing the Scottish kilt.

I'm not saying you must wear a Balmoral or Glengarry -- not that at all. If you don't like them you don't like them. I'm just confused by your reasoning.

[Scotus]

and one of them is mostly for pipe bands

I really like the glengarry and am not in a pipe band. It is not "mostly for" wearing by pipers. Anyone who wants to wear one can wear one. As for "kilt police," it seems that you're making your own rules about what cap people can wear too. I'm not taking offense at this. You have a right to your opinion. I just thought the irony should be pointed out.

Matt, a brilliant point, as usual. Your comment about Scottish vs. Irish doesn't make sense, Zardok, since you're wearing a kilt, which is Scottish.

[O'Callaghan]

I noticed when this debate was raging the first time that, almost without exception, those who thought the flat cap looked ok with the kilt were from North America, while those who thought it a no-no were from the UK.

The flat-cap, it seems, has different cultural connotations on either side of the Atlantic. Nothing wrong with that.

But I did find your above remark about Scottish caps not resonating with you because your heritage is Irish.... um... but isn't that a kilt you are wearing in the photo?

I don't understand why, as a person of Irish heritage, you would feel uncomfortable in a Scottish cap, yet perfectly comfortable wearing the Scottish kilt.

I'm not saying you must wear a Balmoral or Glengarry -- not that at all. If you don't like them you don't like them. I'm just confused by your reasoning.

The balmoral/tam/blue bonnet is/are only worn to represent Scottish heritage, probably because the Irish have the very similar caubeen instead. Why would someone of Irish descent wear a Scottish version of the hat that was probably derived from the caubeen? The kilt has a century plus of history in Ireland (but I'm sure you knew that). However, everyone concedes that Scots wore the kilt first, and that cowboys wore jeans first. Being neither a Scot nor a cowboy, I'm about as likely to wear a ten gallon hat with my jeans as a balmoral with my kilt. Not very.

The Irish Air Corps currently wear blue glengarries and the Irish National Army field green ones, to match their respective uniforms, and I'm not just referring to pipers, although in fact the army pipers wear a black caubeen with saffron ribbons and green hackle instead. The glengarry derives AFAIK from an English military forage cap by way of the Highland Scots regiments. Many regard it as a military/pipers' hat, and I would say with some justification, but if some Scots want to wear it as a 'civvy' item to denote their heritage, then why not? Just don't expect the Irish to do that.

I don't think you are really confused, just pretending to be confused in an ironic way. But then, everybody knew that.

[macwilkin]

The balmoral/tam/blue bonnet is/are only worn to represent Scottish heritage, probably because the Irish have the very similar caubeen instead.
The kilt has a century plus of history in Ireland (but I'm sure you knew that). However, everyone concedes that Scots wore the kilt first, and that cowboys wore jeans first. Being neither a Scot nor a cowboy, I'm about as likely to wear a ten gallon hat with my jeans as a balmoral with my kilt. Not very.

The Irish Air Corps currently wear blue glengarries and the Irish National Army field green ones, to match their respective uniforms, and I'm not just referring to pipers, although in fact the army pipers wear a black caubeen with saffron ribbons and green hackle instead. The glengarry derives AFAIK from an English military forage cap by way of the Highland Scots regiments. Many regard it as a military/pipers' hat, and I would say with some justification, but if some Scots want to wear it as a 'civvy' item to denote their heritage, then why not?

I don't think you are really confused, just pretending to be confused in an ironic way. But then, everybody knew that.

The Irish Air Corps wears the Scottish pattern glengarry (as well as the Irish Ranger Wing), but pipers, officers cavalry/armored regiments wear a "glengarry" which is similar to a bonnet/caubeen -- see MacCarron's Irish Defence Forces since 1922 (Osprey MAA No. 417) for more information about the difference.

While some have tried to clame an ancient pedigree for the caubeen, citing a depiction of the Irish warlord Owen Roe O'Neill, I can't say I've seen any hard & fast evidence for it.

Regards,

Todd

[Phil]

One aspect of "flat-cap" wearing that has not yet been explored is its association with the class system, the British (particularly southern British) obsession with classifyiing people according to their upbringing, employment, place of residence and their accent. Broadly speaking this comprises:-
1. Upper class - the lords and ladies, royalty etc. a privileged group of people who cling desperately to their money and position in society, generally by the means of excluding anyone not selected by an accident of birth. They are quite happy to wear whatever headwear is handy because they know you can't be one of them whatever you wear and like to "slum it" occasionally. Americans will recognise the similar one-time habit of socialites there visiting Harlem to revel in the misfortune of others.
2. Middle class - these are wannabee lords and ladies but, sadly, despite having been fortunate to have been left some land and cash by Daddy, unfortunately he didn't manage the blue-blooded genes. They never stop trying, however, and are the greatest sticklers for all forms of behaviour so as to appear as if they might, just might, possibly on a good day with the wind behind them, be mistaken for nobility. They would never be seen dead in a flat cap, however, which is seen as one of the the ultimate defining badges of the next class which is -
3. Working class - these are the people who actually DO things as opposed to those who inherited things. They have not been in the fortunate position of being left some land and money by Daddy but have, instead, had to roll up their sleeves and earn the filthy stuff by the sweat of their brows. And they wear flat caps - an unmistakeable badge of their lowly status.

[Scotus]

One aspect of "flat-cap" wearing that has not yet been explored is its association with the class system, the British (particularly southern British) obsession with classifyiing people according to their upbringing, employment, place of residence and their accent. Broadly speaking this comprises:-
1. Upper class - the lords and ladies, royalty etc. a privileged group of people who cling desperately to their money and position in society, generally by the means of excluding anyone not selected by an accident of birth. They are quite happy to wear whatever headwear is handy because they know you can't be one of them whatever you wear and like to "slum it" occasionally. Americans will recognise the similar one-time habit of socialites there visiting Harlem to revel in the misfortune of others.
2. Middle class - these are wannabee lords and ladies but, sadly, despite having been fortunate to have been left some land and cash by Daddy, unfortunately he didn't manage the blue-blooded genes. They never stop trying, however, and are the greatest sticklers for all forms of behaviour so as to appear as if they might, just might, possibly on a good day with the wind behind them, be mistaken for nobility. They would never be seen dead in a flat cap, however, which is seen as one of the the ultimate defining badges of the next class which is -
3. Working class - these are the people who actually DO things as opposed to those who inherited things. They have not been in the fortunate position of being left some land and money by Daddy but have, instead, had to roll up their sleeves and earn the filthy stuff by the sweat of their brows. And they wear flat caps - an unmistakeable badge of their lowly status.

So, if I understand:

1. Upper class are/were bad because they inherited money/property, but they probably don't care about flat caps.

2. Middle class are just a bunch of social climbers who wouldn't be caught dead in a flat cap because they might be mistaken for the next group.

3. Third Class are the most virtuous of all because (by an accident of birth) they didn't/haven't inherited money/property. The flat cap, therefore, is a proud symbol of having to work for a living because they're not like the evil rich people (who do nothing) or the social climbing middle class (who are simply trying to appear to be something they're not).

Your post is insulting on so many levels. It could be, Phil, that it has nothing to do with class envy and is simply a matter of taste.

[JSFMACLJR]

So, if I understand:

1. Upper class are/were bad because they inherited money/property, but they probably don't care about flat caps.

2. Middle class are just a bunch of social climbers who wouldn't be caught dead in a flat cap because they might be mistaken for the next group.

3. Third Class are the most virtuous of all because (by an accident of birth) they didn't/haven't inherited money/property. The flat cap, therefore, is a proud symbol of having to work for a living because they're not like the evil rich people (who do nothing) or the social climbing middle class (who are simply trying to appear to be something they're not).

Your post is insulting on so many levels. It could be, Phil, that it has nothing to do with class envy and is simply a matter of taste.

I agree with Scotus. Phil is off the mark about flat caps with the upper classes. Said cap is worn shooting, fishing, beagling, cub hunting, various other blood sports; it is worn to point-to-point meets and various country pursuits. In other words, Phil, it isn't as simple as you seem to imply. The Royal Family, of course, are all seen wearing tweed caps, of course never with the kilt!

[Phil]

So, if I understand:

1. Upper class are/were bad because they inherited money/property, but they probably don't care about flat caps.

2. Middle class are just a bunch of social climbers who wouldn't be caught dead in a flat cap because they might be mistaken for the next group.

3. Third Class are the most virtuous of all because (by an accident of birth) they didn't/haven't inherited money/property. The flat cap, therefore, is a proud symbol of having to work for a living because they're not like the evil rich people (who do nothing) or the social climbing middle class (who are simply trying to appear to be something they're not).

Your post is insulting on so many levels. It could be, Phil, that it has nothing to do with class envy and is simply a matter of taste.

An interesting take on my post but, sadly, quite erroneous. I am assuming, of course, that you are quite unaware of the social divisions that exist within British society and which are defined by such trivial characteristics as one's accent or choice of clothing. Sadly such divisions do continue to this day and individuals still find that their progress within certain professions and, in particular, the armed forces can be inexplicably barred as a result. My post has nothing to do with good or evil, having to work for a living or not. It has to do with the attitudes of men towards their fellows based on the most superficial of appearances, an attitude that can and has blighted many lives.

[DWFII]

One aspect of "flat-cap" wearing that has not yet been explored is its association with the class system, the British (particularly southern British) obsession with classifyiing people according to their upbringing, employment, place of residence and their accent. Broadly speaking this comprises:-[snip]

This makes me uncomfortable on so many levels...

First it is a form of "class-ism" that is every bit as egregious as the "elitism" that you are imputing to the British upper classes...only in this case it's in reverse. I see this everywhere now...as if there is something inherently wrong with people who, by accident of birth, are wealthier than the common and ordinary run of citizens. It strikes me as envious at its heart and a whine/rant of little real substance.

It's also a broad generalization that upon closer inspection doesn't have all that much meaning that I can see. I am a working man. I make things...of real and tangible value to others. My fingernails are black 30 days out of every month (except February and then only 29). I work 8-10 hours a day at a job that has left me, after 35+ years, with a bit of a humpback and unrelieved pain in many of my joints.

Yet I am a bit of a stickler for order and structure and all "forms of behaviour" and traditions.

And yes, to my mind, people who have the resources and time to scrape the black out from under their fingernails on a regular basis, do project a slightly more appealing aspect than those of us who find the black so ingrained as to be impossible to remove. Would I prefer to have clean fingernails when go out with to dinner with my wife...who wouldn't? I mean really? There are lots of things about a more prosperous and leisurely lifestyle that I would eagerly embrace. Who wouldn't? Really?

Having said that, I would wear, and have done, flat caps. I like them.

Despite being all too boringly familiar, none of these three characterizations really rings true to me. None of them really bear up under closer scrutiny. In my opinion...

[Phil]

This makes me uncomfortable on so many levels...

First it is a form of "class-ism" that is every bit as egregious as the "elitism" that you are imputing to the British upper classes...only in this case it's in reverse. I see this everywhere now...as if there is something inherently wrong with people who, by accident of birth, are wealthier than the common and ordinary run of citizens. It strikes me as envious at its heart and a whine/rant of little real substance.

It's also a broad generalization that upon closer inspection doesn't have all that much meaning that I can see. I am a working man. I make things...of real and tangible value to others. My fingernails are black 30 days out of every month (except February and then only 29). I work 8-10 hours a day at a job that has left me, after 35+ years, with a bit of a humpback and unrelieved pain in many of my joints.

Yet I am a bit of a stickler for order and structure and all "forms of behaviour" and traditions.

And yes, to my mind, people who have the resources and time to scrape the black out from under their fingernails on a regular basis, do project a slightly more appealing aspect than those of us who find the black so ingrained as to be impossible to remove. Would I prefer to have clean fingernails when go out with to dinner with my wife...who wouldn't? I mean really? There are lots of things about a more prosperous and leisurely lifestyle that I would eagerly embrace. Who wouldn't? Really?

Having said that, I would wear, and have done, flat caps. I like them.

Despite being all too boringly familiar, none of these three characterizations really rings true to me. None of them really bear up under closer scrutiny. In my opinion...

I fear that you miss the whole point of my post, whether by accident or on purpose. I do understand why none of these "characterizations" rings true, however, as I assume you have been born and brought up in a country where none of them apply. You may aspire to be the President of your country, I have to rely on an accident of birth for that. You may wish to join an elite branch of your armed forces and rise to the top in it. I can only aspire to advancement within the catering corps as the Household Division is a closed shop to officers without a privileged background. I won't go on but I do wish you would not place an "envy of wealth" slant on my comments without a true appreciation of the circumstances that I attempted to describe. Some of the "let them eat cake" responses from the "shooting, fishing, beagling, cub hunting, various other blood sports" camp are entirely predictable, of course because what vested interests do you think they are trying to defend?