Celtic Crest

[SteveB]

All of this over a low priced T-shirt?

[Highland Logan]

All of this over a low priced T-shirt?

They all have to start from something...lol

Frank

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

All of this over a low priced T-shirt?

Actually, for some, it's about another form of identity theft.

[celticstudio]

Hi all,
Interesting to see that this discussion started with the purchase of a T shirt, copyright and has led to further exploration about black and white verus colour for the Clan crest.
MAC LACHLAN started the duscusion about value, quality and price. He decided to purchase a simple one colour T shirt because of price. Yes, it is far less expensive to silk screen in one colour no matter how thick the paint.

The second issue made me laugh. Copyright! Other writers here rbrought up the subject and others followed it to see if it was an "authorized" use. They discovered that the artwork had been "stolen". No royalty paid.. no time spent by the vender. Outright theft! Yes that is indeed true. As the owner and artist of Celtic Studio I can say that I have spent many, many hours of dedicated research and effort to draw and design of my Clan crest images (33 years actually!) It is a huge task and I do every crest in full colour. It is a true irony that while MACLACHLAN chose another company to supply is less expensive T shirt with "stolen" artwork he then chose to "STEAL" my artwork as his logo for use here. The inage displayed is mine and it still has my copyright symbol on it! MACLACHLAN.. you are forgiven. You may use it because you are not using it for commercial purposes. I allow this and any other member here my use my images which are readily available on my web page. If you ever find any error please let me know and I will change it .. I appreciate the feedback. We are here to make sure things are correct after all that is how true history survives.
Black and white as opposed to colour. My knowledge of this is that when the Clan crest is being displayed in a manner that is NOT in the metal form it is only correct to display it in colour as long as it is displayed with the words " An Ceann Cirean Cinnidh" I "discoverd this in the landmark text by Frank Adam, "The Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands" and it appears to be a ruling by Lord Lyons. I can not find the exact page at the moment but that is why all of my artwork in colour has thise words and is used on everything that I make that is not metal. never used on metal.
Hope this is of interest and help.
All the best
Louis Walsh
Heraldic artist and owner of Celtic Studio

[Maclachlan]

First let me say thank you, Louis! I appreciate the PM you sent to me.

Second, I also appreciate the fact that you also have plently of clan crested items for sale and the prices are more than fair. I only wish I had known all about this before hand. That said, I now know and will now send my credit card your way in the future (I'll be needing three more shirts as a minimum).

Again, thanks for your help in this matter!

Mac

[smaughazard]

Black and white as opposed to colour. My knowledge of this is that when the Clan crest is being displayed in a manner that is NOT in the metal form it is only correct to display it in colour as long as it is displayed with the words " An Ceann Cirean Cinnidh" I "discoverd this in the landmark text by Frank Adam, "The Clans, Septs and Regiments of the Scottish Highlands" and it appears to be a ruling by Lord Lyons. I can not find the exact page at the moment but that is why all of my artwork in colour has thise words and is used on everything that I make that is not metal. never used on metal.
Hope this is of interest and help.
All the best
Louis Walsh
Heraldic artist and owner of Celtic Studio

Hi, Louis-

I did considerable research a few years ago before redrawing the Clan Kincaid crest for the Clan's use (with our Chief's approval), but I have never heard of this. I have not read the Frank Adam book, nor do I speak gaelic. Can you (or someone) translate the phrase "An Ceann Cirean Cinnidh", please? If this phrase is required, I want to be sure that our official website is correct.

Thanks,
Bill

[macwilkin]

Hi, Louis-

I did considerable research a few years ago before redrawing the Clan Kincaid crest for the Clan's use (with our Chief's approval), but I have never heard of this. I have not read the Frank Adam book, nor do I speak gaelic. Can you (or someone) translate the phrase "An Ceann Cirean Cinnidh", please? If this phrase is required, I want to be sure that our official website is correct.

Thanks,
Bill

"The Crest of the Clan Chief".

Regards,

Todd

[smaughazard]

Thanks, Todd!

[macwilkin]

Thanks, Todd!

You're most welcome!

Todd

[celticstudio]

Hi Bill,
The words An Ceann Cirean Cinnidh are Gaelic and are translated roughly as “The crest shown is the crest for the Chief (head) of the Clan” and should appear below the crest. I dealt with this by breaking the words in the middle An on one side Cirean on the other side of the end of the buckle. The same with the rest of the wording.
Other obscure heraldry about Clan crests.
The torse is supposed to be made of the two main colours of the Coat of Arm of the Chief and these are used to create the colours of the mantling. The ripped and torn material on either side of the Arms. These were originally supposed to be made of silk and were used to protect the poor guy inside from cooking in his armour! A little shade. To fit this in place they twisted it into a torse (sort of like the Arabs do on their long headdress. I suspect that this was noticed when the knights were on Crusades in the Middle east.) In heraldry the torse is ALWAYS supposed to be of only SIX sections. (Reference: The Art of Heraldry, page 298, 299) More obscure heraldic law. Here is the second part of this same heraldic law. The first colour is ALWAYS supposed to be the metal colour. (Reference: The Art of Heraldry, page 298, 299) Every colour represents a material. The shield in a Coat of Arms is always a metal or a fur. The first colour of the torse is ALWAYS the metal and the second colour is the other predominant colour in the Arms. (Reference: The Art of Heraldry, page 298, 299)
Hope this helps. Your artwork for Kincaid is great .. best I have seen. Very nice. There are a lot of "small" rules that are not described in the description and these "rules" are almost impossible to find to make things perfectly correct.
If I can assist anyone here I will be delighted to do so.. so that Scottish heraldry remains clean, clear and crisp! I have been doing this for 33 years!
All the best
Louis