Why all the negative comments on Flat Caps?

[Phil]

One aspect of "flat-cap" wearing that has not yet been explored is its association with the class system, the British (particularly southern British) obsession with classifyiing people according to their upbringing, employment, place of residence and their accent. Broadly speaking this comprises:-
1. Upper class - the lords and ladies, royalty etc. a privileged group of people who cling desperately to their money and position in society, generally by the means of excluding anyone not selected by an accident of birth. They are quite happy to wear whatever headwear is handy because they know you can't be one of them whatever you wear and like to "slum it" occasionally. Americans will recognise the similar one-time habit of socialites there visiting Harlem to revel in the misfortune of others.
2. Middle class - these are wannabee lords and ladies but, sadly, despite having been fortunate to have been left some land and cash by Daddy, unfortunately he didn't manage the blue-blooded genes. They never stop trying, however, and are the greatest sticklers for all forms of behaviour so as to appear as if they might, just might, possibly on a good day with the wind behind them, be mistaken for nobility. They would never be seen dead in a flat cap, however, which is seen as one of the the ultimate defining badges of the next class which is -
3. Working class - these are the people who actually DO things as opposed to those who inherited things. They have not been in the fortunate position of being left some land and money by Daddy but have, instead, had to roll up their sleeves and earn the filthy stuff by the sweat of their brows. And they wear flat caps - an unmistakeable badge of their lowly status.

[Scotus]

One aspect of "flat-cap" wearing that has not yet been explored is its association with the class system, the British (particularly southern British) obsession with classifyiing people according to their upbringing, employment, place of residence and their accent. Broadly speaking this comprises:-
1. Upper class - the lords and ladies, royalty etc. a privileged group of people who cling desperately to their money and position in society, generally by the means of excluding anyone not selected by an accident of birth. They are quite happy to wear whatever headwear is handy because they know you can't be one of them whatever you wear and like to "slum it" occasionally. Americans will recognise the similar one-time habit of socialites there visiting Harlem to revel in the misfortune of others.
2. Middle class - these are wannabee lords and ladies but, sadly, despite having been fortunate to have been left some land and cash by Daddy, unfortunately he didn't manage the blue-blooded genes. They never stop trying, however, and are the greatest sticklers for all forms of behaviour so as to appear as if they might, just might, possibly on a good day with the wind behind them, be mistaken for nobility. They would never be seen dead in a flat cap, however, which is seen as one of the the ultimate defining badges of the next class which is -
3. Working class - these are the people who actually DO things as opposed to those who inherited things. They have not been in the fortunate position of being left some land and money by Daddy but have, instead, had to roll up their sleeves and earn the filthy stuff by the sweat of their brows. And they wear flat caps - an unmistakeable badge of their lowly status.

So, if I understand:

1. Upper class are/were bad because they inherited money/property, but they probably don't care about flat caps.

2. Middle class are just a bunch of social climbers who wouldn't be caught dead in a flat cap because they might be mistaken for the next group.

3. Third Class are the most virtuous of all because (by an accident of birth) they didn't/haven't inherited money/property. The flat cap, therefore, is a proud symbol of having to work for a living because they're not like the evil rich people (who do nothing) or the social climbing middle class (who are simply trying to appear to be something they're not).

Your post is insulting on so many levels. It could be, Phil, that it has nothing to do with class envy and is simply a matter of taste.

[JSFMACLJR]

So, if I understand:

1. Upper class are/were bad because they inherited money/property, but they probably don't care about flat caps.

2. Middle class are just a bunch of social climbers who wouldn't be caught dead in a flat cap because they might be mistaken for the next group.

3. Third Class are the most virtuous of all because (by an accident of birth) they didn't/haven't inherited money/property. The flat cap, therefore, is a proud symbol of having to work for a living because they're not like the evil rich people (who do nothing) or the social climbing middle class (who are simply trying to appear to be something they're not).

Your post is insulting on so many levels. It could be, Phil, that it has nothing to do with class envy and is simply a matter of taste.

I agree with Scotus. Phil is off the mark about flat caps with the upper classes. Said cap is worn shooting, fishing, beagling, cub hunting, various other blood sports; it is worn to point-to-point meets and various country pursuits. In other words, Phil, it isn't as simple as you seem to imply. The Royal Family, of course, are all seen wearing tweed caps, of course never with the kilt!

[Phil]

So, if I understand:

1. Upper class are/were bad because they inherited money/property, but they probably don't care about flat caps.

2. Middle class are just a bunch of social climbers who wouldn't be caught dead in a flat cap because they might be mistaken for the next group.

3. Third Class are the most virtuous of all because (by an accident of birth) they didn't/haven't inherited money/property. The flat cap, therefore, is a proud symbol of having to work for a living because they're not like the evil rich people (who do nothing) or the social climbing middle class (who are simply trying to appear to be something they're not).

Your post is insulting on so many levels. It could be, Phil, that it has nothing to do with class envy and is simply a matter of taste.

An interesting take on my post but, sadly, quite erroneous. I am assuming, of course, that you are quite unaware of the social divisions that exist within British society and which are defined by such trivial characteristics as one's accent or choice of clothing. Sadly such divisions do continue to this day and individuals still find that their progress within certain professions and, in particular, the armed forces can be inexplicably barred as a result. My post has nothing to do with good or evil, having to work for a living or not. It has to do with the attitudes of men towards their fellows based on the most superficial of appearances, an attitude that can and has blighted many lives.

[DWFII]

One aspect of "flat-cap" wearing that has not yet been explored is its association with the class system, the British (particularly southern British) obsession with classifyiing people according to their upbringing, employment, place of residence and their accent. Broadly speaking this comprises:-[snip]

This makes me uncomfortable on so many levels...

First it is a form of "class-ism" that is every bit as egregious as the "elitism" that you are imputing to the British upper classes...only in this case it's in reverse. I see this everywhere now...as if there is something inherently wrong with people who, by accident of birth, are wealthier than the common and ordinary run of citizens. It strikes me as envious at its heart and a whine/rant of little real substance.

It's also a broad generalization that upon closer inspection doesn't have all that much meaning that I can see. I am a working man. I make things...of real and tangible value to others. My fingernails are black 30 days out of every month (except February and then only 29). I work 8-10 hours a day at a job that has left me, after 35+ years, with a bit of a humpback and unrelieved pain in many of my joints.

Yet I am a bit of a stickler for order and structure and all "forms of behaviour" and traditions.

And yes, to my mind, people who have the resources and time to scrape the black out from under their fingernails on a regular basis, do project a slightly more appealing aspect than those of us who find the black so ingrained as to be impossible to remove. Would I prefer to have clean fingernails when go out with to dinner with my wife...who wouldn't? I mean really? There are lots of things about a more prosperous and leisurely lifestyle that I would eagerly embrace. Who wouldn't? Really?

Having said that, I would wear, and have done, flat caps. I like them.

Despite being all too boringly familiar, none of these three characterizations really rings true to me. None of them really bear up under closer scrutiny. In my opinion...

[Phil]

This makes me uncomfortable on so many levels...

First it is a form of "class-ism" that is every bit as egregious as the "elitism" that you are imputing to the British upper classes...only in this case it's in reverse. I see this everywhere now...as if there is something inherently wrong with people who, by accident of birth, are wealthier than the common and ordinary run of citizens. It strikes me as envious at its heart and a whine/rant of little real substance.

It's also a broad generalization that upon closer inspection doesn't have all that much meaning that I can see. I am a working man. I make things...of real and tangible value to others. My fingernails are black 30 days out of every month (except February and then only 29). I work 8-10 hours a day at a job that has left me, after 35+ years, with a bit of a humpback and unrelieved pain in many of my joints.

Yet I am a bit of a stickler for order and structure and all "forms of behaviour" and traditions.

And yes, to my mind, people who have the resources and time to scrape the black out from under their fingernails on a regular basis, do project a slightly more appealing aspect than those of us who find the black so ingrained as to be impossible to remove. Would I prefer to have clean fingernails when go out with to dinner with my wife...who wouldn't? I mean really? There are lots of things about a more prosperous and leisurely lifestyle that I would eagerly embrace. Who wouldn't? Really?

Having said that, I would wear, and have done, flat caps. I like them.

Despite being all too boringly familiar, none of these three characterizations really rings true to me. None of them really bear up under closer scrutiny. In my opinion...

I fear that you miss the whole point of my post, whether by accident or on purpose. I do understand why none of these "characterizations" rings true, however, as I assume you have been born and brought up in a country where none of them apply. You may aspire to be the President of your country, I have to rely on an accident of birth for that. You may wish to join an elite branch of your armed forces and rise to the top in it. I can only aspire to advancement within the catering corps as the Household Division is a closed shop to officers without a privileged background. I won't go on but I do wish you would not place an "envy of wealth" slant on my comments without a true appreciation of the circumstances that I attempted to describe. Some of the "let them eat cake" responses from the "shooting, fishing, beagling, cub hunting, various other blood sports" camp are entirely predictable, of course because what vested interests do you think they are trying to defend?

[Bigkahuna]

removed

[Bigkahuna]

My life is to be "Blighted" if I wear a flat cap??????:hide

[DWFII]

I fear that you miss the whole point of my post, whether by accident or on purpose. I do understand why none of these "characterizations" rings true, however, as I assume you have been born and brought up in a country where none of them apply. You may aspire to be the President of your country, I have to rely on an accident of birth for that. You may wish to join an elite branch of your armed forces and rise to the top in it. I can only aspire to advancement within the catering corps as the Household Division is a closed shop to officers without a privileged background. I won't go on but I do wish you would not place an "envy of wealth" slant on my comments without a true appreciation of the circumstances that I attempted to describe. Some of the "let them eat cake" responses from the "shooting, fishing, beagling, cub hunting, various other blood sports" camp are entirely predictable, of course because what vested interests do you think they are trying to defend?

I would not purposefully mis-understand you. I apologize for whatever misunderstanding...for whatever reason.

And I concede that I have not grown up in or had much exposure to the kind of culture or social structure you describe...but, surely that works the other way around, as well--if you are speaking to an international audience you can't really expect them to share your unique perspectives, can you?

That said, I think that "class" is probably nearly as well established and in someways just as restrictive in the US as in Britain...it's just more subtle. But there are many people in the US...and in Britain, too, I'm sure...who use their wealth, whether inherited or not, to great benefit for their fellow man. Charities, endowments, trusts, foundations, and the like. To be sure, there's a certain amount of self-interest involved in this but there's a certain amount of generosity, as well.

On the other hand, those at the other end of the spectrum seldom have even enough generosity of spirit to give anyone visibly better off than themselves the benefit of the doubt.

And in this country...as I'm sure must be true in yours...there is at least a percentage of the "lower classes" who would rather wallow in self-pity than work.

There is little to admire in greed and the unrelenting consignment of quality, respect, and tradition to commercial interests--the reduction of all things good to the lowest common denominator for the purpose of selling it more easily (or cheaply).

But there is absolutely no redeeming aspect of poverty...no virtue in starvation and disease.

That "the third class are the most virtuous" strikes me as sloganeering to some extent...add a flat cap and suddenly you have a revolution. It doesn't resonate with me or seem useful in the real world.

[slohairt]

I own a caubeen, but I'm not really much of a hat guy. (Due to my large Irish head.) I've never worn a flat cap, though my cousin (and close friend) frequently wore one backwards during his 'Dazed and Confused' phase!