Why all the negative comments on Flat Caps?

[puffer]

......and most important of all, A SMILE.

JOCK, YOU SAID IT ALL !!!!

Puffer

[O'Callaghan]

I noticed when this debate was raging the first time that, almost without exception, those who thought the flat cap looked ok with the kilt were from North America, while those who thought it a no-no were from the UK.

The flat-cap, it seems, has different cultural connotations on either side of the Atlantic. Nothing wrong with that.

But I did find your above remark about Scottish caps not resonating with you because your heritage is Irish.... um... but isn't that a kilt you are wearing in the photo?

I don't understand why, as a person of Irish heritage, you would feel uncomfortable in a Scottish cap, yet perfectly comfortable wearing the Scottish kilt.

I'm not saying you must wear a Balmoral or Glengarry -- not that at all. If you don't like them you don't like them. I'm just confused by your reasoning.

The balmoral/tam/blue bonnet is/are only worn to represent Scottish heritage, probably because the Irish have the very similar caubeen instead. Why would someone of Irish descent wear a Scottish version of the hat that was probably derived from the caubeen? The kilt has a century plus of history in Ireland (but I'm sure you knew that). However, everyone concedes that Scots wore the kilt first, and that cowboys wore jeans first. Being neither a Scot nor a cowboy, I'm about as likely to wear a ten gallon hat with my jeans as a balmoral with my kilt. Not very.

The Irish Air Corps currently wear blue glengarries and the Irish National Army field green ones, to match their respective uniforms, and I'm not just referring to pipers, although in fact the army pipers wear a black caubeen with saffron ribbons and green hackle instead. The glengarry derives AFAIK from an English military forage cap by way of the Highland Scots regiments. Many regard it as a military/pipers' hat, and I would say with some justification, but if some Scots want to wear it as a 'civvy' item to denote their heritage, then why not? Just don't expect the Irish to do that.

I don't think you are really confused, just pretending to be confused in an ironic way. But then, everybody knew that.

[Dirk Skene]

Well I'm with you I wear my flat cap with my kilt also , so I would like to know too.

Makes me wanna go out & buy one... I think I will

[macwilkin]

The balmoral/tam/blue bonnet is/are only worn to represent Scottish heritage, probably because the Irish have the very similar caubeen instead.
The kilt has a century plus of history in Ireland (but I'm sure you knew that). However, everyone concedes that Scots wore the kilt first, and that cowboys wore jeans first. Being neither a Scot nor a cowboy, I'm about as likely to wear a ten gallon hat with my jeans as a balmoral with my kilt. Not very.

The Irish Air Corps currently wear blue glengarries and the Irish National Army field green ones, to match their respective uniforms, and I'm not just referring to pipers, although in fact the army pipers wear a black caubeen with saffron ribbons and green hackle instead. The glengarry derives AFAIK from an English military forage cap by way of the Highland Scots regiments. Many regard it as a military/pipers' hat, and I would say with some justification, but if some Scots want to wear it as a 'civvy' item to denote their heritage, then why not?

I don't think you are really confused, just pretending to be confused in an ironic way. But then, everybody knew that.

The Irish Air Corps wears the Scottish pattern glengarry (as well as the Irish Ranger Wing), but pipers, officers cavalry/armored regiments wear a "glengarry" which is similar to a bonnet/caubeen -- see MacCarron's Irish Defence Forces since 1922 (Osprey MAA No. 417) for more information about the difference.

While some have tried to clame an ancient pedigree for the caubeen, citing a depiction of the Irish warlord Owen Roe O'Neill, I can't say I've seen any hard & fast evidence for it.

Regards,

Todd

[Phil]

One aspect of "flat-cap" wearing that has not yet been explored is its association with the class system, the British (particularly southern British) obsession with classifyiing people according to their upbringing, employment, place of residence and their accent. Broadly speaking this comprises:-
1. Upper class - the lords and ladies, royalty etc. a privileged group of people who cling desperately to their money and position in society, generally by the means of excluding anyone not selected by an accident of birth. They are quite happy to wear whatever headwear is handy because they know you can't be one of them whatever you wear and like to "slum it" occasionally. Americans will recognise the similar one-time habit of socialites there visiting Harlem to revel in the misfortune of others.
2. Middle class - these are wannabee lords and ladies but, sadly, despite having been fortunate to have been left some land and cash by Daddy, unfortunately he didn't manage the blue-blooded genes. They never stop trying, however, and are the greatest sticklers for all forms of behaviour so as to appear as if they might, just might, possibly on a good day with the wind behind them, be mistaken for nobility. They would never be seen dead in a flat cap, however, which is seen as one of the the ultimate defining badges of the next class which is -
3. Working class - these are the people who actually DO things as opposed to those who inherited things. They have not been in the fortunate position of being left some land and money by Daddy but have, instead, had to roll up their sleeves and earn the filthy stuff by the sweat of their brows. And they wear flat caps - an unmistakeable badge of their lowly status.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

My thoughts on why I do not prefer to wear the Balmoral or the Glengarry is because it seems to be more military minded. I know in other posts, I have stated I wanted a caubeen, which is seen as a military head wear, but it's roots are with the common people.

Again, you are more than entitled to wear or not wear whatever style of cap you want, but I have to question the justification behind it. You say you do not like the Balmoral or Glengarry because they have military connotations, but like the caubeen, even though it is a military cap, because it has common (civilian) origins....

...but the same is true of the Balmoral and glengarry.

This article of mine details some of that history:
http://albanach.org/hummel.htm

Basically, the Balmoral and Glengarry both derive from the old broad bonnet, which itself derives from an even older style of bonnet once common across much of Europe (which is likely the origin of the caubeen, as well).

Point is, though all of these styles of cap are worn, or have been worn, in a military context, they are all civilian in their origin and none have ever ben restricted to military use.

[Scotus]

One aspect of "flat-cap" wearing that has not yet been explored is its association with the class system, the British (particularly southern British) obsession with classifyiing people according to their upbringing, employment, place of residence and their accent. Broadly speaking this comprises:-
1. Upper class - the lords and ladies, royalty etc. a privileged group of people who cling desperately to their money and position in society, generally by the means of excluding anyone not selected by an accident of birth. They are quite happy to wear whatever headwear is handy because they know you can't be one of them whatever you wear and like to "slum it" occasionally. Americans will recognise the similar one-time habit of socialites there visiting Harlem to revel in the misfortune of others.
2. Middle class - these are wannabee lords and ladies but, sadly, despite having been fortunate to have been left some land and cash by Daddy, unfortunately he didn't manage the blue-blooded genes. They never stop trying, however, and are the greatest sticklers for all forms of behaviour so as to appear as if they might, just might, possibly on a good day with the wind behind them, be mistaken for nobility. They would never be seen dead in a flat cap, however, which is seen as one of the the ultimate defining badges of the next class which is -
3. Working class - these are the people who actually DO things as opposed to those who inherited things. They have not been in the fortunate position of being left some land and money by Daddy but have, instead, had to roll up their sleeves and earn the filthy stuff by the sweat of their brows. And they wear flat caps - an unmistakeable badge of their lowly status.

So, if I understand:

1. Upper class are/were bad because they inherited money/property, but they probably don't care about flat caps.

2. Middle class are just a bunch of social climbers who wouldn't be caught dead in a flat cap because they might be mistaken for the next group.

3. Third Class are the most virtuous of all because (by an accident of birth) they didn't/haven't inherited money/property. The flat cap, therefore, is a proud symbol of having to work for a living because they're not like the evil rich people (who do nothing) or the social climbing middle class (who are simply trying to appear to be something they're not).

Your post is insulting on so many levels. It could be, Phil, that it has nothing to do with class envy and is simply a matter of taste.

[Paul Henry]

I think in many ways, Phil isn't so far from the truth, perahps, and I don't know, in the States the "flat cap" isn't seen so much of social status as it is here in Britain.
I didn't find Phil's post particularly insulting, as there more than a grain of truth contained within it.

[dfmacliam]

Mr Newsome, I believe you have proven your point and shown me where I was wrong to make such a statement. What I really like about this forum, is those of you who are educating those of us in historical facts and not just mere opinions. Thank you sir, I do enjoy learning.

[JSFMACLJR]

So, if I understand:

1. Upper class are/were bad because they inherited money/property, but they probably don't care about flat caps.

2. Middle class are just a bunch of social climbers who wouldn't be caught dead in a flat cap because they might be mistaken for the next group.

3. Third Class are the most virtuous of all because (by an accident of birth) they didn't/haven't inherited money/property. The flat cap, therefore, is a proud symbol of having to work for a living because they're not like the evil rich people (who do nothing) or the social climbing middle class (who are simply trying to appear to be something they're not).

Your post is insulting on so many levels. It could be, Phil, that it has nothing to do with class envy and is simply a matter of taste.

I agree with Scotus. Phil is off the mark about flat caps with the upper classes. Said cap is worn shooting, fishing, beagling, cub hunting, various other blood sports; it is worn to point-to-point meets and various country pursuits. In other words, Phil, it isn't as simple as you seem to imply. The Royal Family, of course, are all seen wearing tweed caps, of course never with the kilt!