Thanks for the thoughts thus far gentlemen... To reiterate, though: JSFMACLJR: you seem to be referring to a historical situation (which is fine -- I like history) but it doesn't seem to me that it would happen nowadays. As for you Phil, you obviously speaking of the clan societies today. Without commenting on whether or not your position is tenable, let me ask this as a followup question: Is there such thing as a clan outside its clan society?