A Modern Scottish View of Clans (and Gathering)

[macwilkin]

At highland games here in the US I have often thought how ironic it is to see Americans leap to their feet when clan chiefs are introduced as honored guests, in ignorance, sometimes willful, that it was more often than not the ancestors of these very chiefs whose mistreatment of their own ancestors cause them to leave their homes in Scotland to start from nothing, making a new life in a strange country.

Of course, one can argue that those Chiefs did anything to anyone's ancestors, because they weren't alive at the time.

"Sins of the father" all that.

T.

[Monkey@Arms]

Of course, one can argue that those Chiefs did anything to anyone's ancestors, because they weren't alive at the time.

"Sins of the father" all that.

T.

Yes, but to take your point if one is a descendant of the victims of the clearances, why express loyalty (as some do) to the descendants of your oppressor and the system that enabled your oppression?

Best regards,

Jake

[macwilkin]

Yes, but if is a descendant of the victims of the clearances, why express loyalty (as some do) to the descendants of your oppressor and the system that enabled your oppression?

Best regards,

Jake

Ah, nothing like generalization...as if every clan chief oppressed every clansman/woman in history. Since I'm not a descendant of a Clearances victim, then I really can't answer that.

And please tell me how an American citizen is being "oppressed" by any clan chief today? I don't recall any "draft notices" from my chief calling me up to fight those dastardly Bruces.

T.

[Monkey@Arms]

Yes, but to take your point if one is a descendant of the victims of the clearances, why express loyalty (as some do) to the descendants of your oppressor and the system that enabled your oppression?

Best regards,

Jake

Ah, nothing like generalization...as if every clan chief oppressed every clansman/woman in history. Since I'm not a descendant of a Clearances victim, then I really can't answer that.

And please tell me how an American citizen is being "oppressed" by any clan chief today? I don't recall any "draft notices" from my chief calling me up to fight those dastardly Bruces.

T.

Note I said "if" in relation to the descendants of the clearances. Obviously, not all Clan Chiefs participated, and not all that emigrated are in that category.

Your second point was due to poor word choice on my part. I meant to say "the system that enabled their ancestors' oppression."

Best regards,

Jake

[macwilkin]

Note I said "if" in relation to the descendants of the clearances. Obviously, not all Clan Chiefs participated, and not all that emigrated are in that category.

Your second point was due to poor word choice on my part. I meant to say "the system that enabled their ancestors' oppression."

Best regards,

Jake

Point taken, Jake -- my only response would be that the clan system that did enable their ancestor's oppression was not the same as the one before Culloden.

T.

[gilmore]

Of course, one can argue that those Chiefs did anything to anyone's ancestors, because they weren't alive at the time.

"Sins of the father" all that.

T.

Of course.

In fact the few chiefs, chieftans, and members of their families I have met have been fine fellows for whom I have a certain sympathy, they having been born into a rather circumscribed and often thankless role in life that they sometimes feel they have to play out, regardless of their own interests, abilities, personalities and inclinations.

Responding using the previous analogy, I may have done nothing to any living African-American's ancestors, because I was not alive at the time, although some of my ancestors were slave owners. However, I have benefited from that injustice. To me it seems the least I can do is not to perpetuate the rosy myth that slavery was a wonderful institution.

[Phil]

I am sure many present-day clan chiefs have little or nothing in common with their predecessors and can appreciate why they may find their role nowadays to be thankless. Why anyone would feel the need to "bend the knee" to them, however is completely beyond me, particularly as so much social change has taken place in this country to reduce the relevance and influence of people derived solely from an accident of their birth. In a country such as America where success is based principally on ability, reverence for inherited influence seems totally incomprehensible. I can only assume that there is a latent desire to look up to such people much in the way the late Princess Diana was revered as a fairy tale princess.

[macwilkin]

I am sure many present-day clan chiefs have little or nothing in common with their predecessors and can appreciate why they may find their role nowadays to be thankless. Why anyone would feel the need to "bend the knee" to them, however is completely beyond me, particularly as so much social change has taken place in this country to reduce the relevance and influence of people derived solely from an accident of their birth. In a country such as America where success is based principally on ability, reverence for inherited influence seems totally incomprehensible. I can only assume that there is a latent desire to look up to such people much in the way the late Princess Diana was revered as a fairy tale princess.

Believe me, America is far from the classless egalitarian paradise you paint it in such romantic terms. Perhaps we Yanks aren't the only ones to buy into myths, eh?

And again, I feel you are being very unfair and making generalizations regarding all Americans and their attitudes towards clan chiefs. Like it or not, the Chief historically is the "father" of a clan, and therefore, is at least entitled to that respect. I respect my clan chief and his efforts to promote the clan's history.

And for the record, the only place I "bend the knee" is in church before and after the Eucharist.

T.

[slohairt]

Believe me, America is far from the classless egalitarian paradise you paint it in such romantic terms. Perhaps we Yanks aren't the only ones to buy into myths, eh?

And again, I feel you are being very unfair and making generalizations regarding all Americans and their attitudes towards clan chiefs. Like it or not, the Chief historically is the "father" of a clan, and therefore, is at least entitled to that respect. I respect my clan chief and his efforts to promote the clan's history.

And for the record, the only place I "bend the knee" is in church before and after the Eucharist.

T.

That's true, Todd. People from everywhere sometimes fall for the myths they or others perpetuate. Here's a story of something that happened to me years ago:

I used to work at a tourist information booth and one day a nice elderly Scottish lady came to the counter and asked where the closest Native Reservation was. I asked her why she wanted to go there. She replied she wanted to see some 'Red Indians' and hopefully witness some traditional ceremonies. Unfortunately, there were some, uh, heated political activities going on there at the time, so I had to dissuade her from going. I also had to explain that Reservations were not always nice places to visit and didn't exactly match up to the myth of Wild West movies. It was an awkward moment, to say the least.

[macwilkin]

That's true, Todd. People from everywhere sometimes fall for the myths they or others perpetuate. Here's a story of something that happened to me years ago:

I used to work at a tourist information booth and one day a nice elderly Scottish lady came to the counter and asked where the closest Native Reservation was. I asked her why she wanted to go there. She replied she wanted to see some 'Red Indians' and hopefully witness some traditional ceremonies. Unfortunately, there were some, uh, heated political activities going on there at the time, so I had to dissuade her from going. I also had to explain that Reservations were not always nice places to visit and didn't exactly match up to the myth of Wild West movies. It was an awkward moment, to say the least.

That wouldn't have been the Oka Crisis would it?

T.