Clans without Crests

[macwilkin]

Since there is no unique crest, no unique motto, no unique tartan, is it possible to create one? Historically I think the answer is yes. Through out histories as families, European nobles, split off because of feuds or marriage, there were changes made to their family crest to reflect that. Flags were changed, names were altered. As we are living in history now, and there should technically be no difference between 1009ad and 2009bc, I don’t think it would be too bad of an offence to create a crest or motto for my family.

The only real difference I can see is that there would be only a handful of people it would relate to, due ot the fact that its new.

What do you think?

In Scottish tradition, there is no such thing as a "family crest". Arms belong to the chief of the name, and the crest badge is actually the chief's crest encircled by a buckle-and-strap with their motto.

As an American citizen, you may always assume arms (i.e. design your own), but they would be your arms alone, and not represent everyone with your surname. If you can trace your ancestry back to the British Isles, you could apply for a grant of arms from the Lyon Court or the College of Arms in England.

In other words, the answer is "not really". History supports the more conventional view of heraldry that arms belong to the individual, and that in Scottish heraldry, the chief's crest and motto are used by members of the clan.

And before this thread is deluged with the "no rules/do what you want" posts, I am merely presenting the traditional view of the subject. No personal insult or slight is intended.

Regards,

Todd

[Bugbear]

I remember my parents buying a "family crest" from a mail order bucket shop when I was a little kid: late seventies probably. And thank you for clarifying that so well, Todd.

[ghostlight]

The whole idea/concept of an affiliated name only works if you can trace your line to the general area of the clan you wish to affiliate with; in other words, whilst Park may be indeed a "sept" of the Macdonalds of Clanranald, this gent's Parks may not even be from their territory.

I had the same problem when I started tracing my ancestors. I know of at least three clans claiming my primary family name, but research says my particular family is only related to one of them. The other side's details are a complete mess. Everyone assumed someone else was keeping track of things for them.

If you want your family to know where they came from start poking around carefully. Don't assume someone else is doing it for you, don't assume the family stories are true (most of mine were entertaining, but not verifiable) and don't pay someone else to sell you "your history".

[ghostlight]

I remember my parents buying a "family crest" from a mail order bucket shop when I was a little kid: late seventies probably.

I have a half-brother whose other half decided that was an acceptable way to begin and end their genealogical studies. They have a "coat of arms" on the wall and a "family history" that is probably false and from the wrong country. I offered to help him get started doing some serious research if/when he wants to take that step.

Back to the original poster's question:

If you'd like to wear the kilt, pick a universal tartan you like (or a contemporary kilt style) and enjoy wearing it regardless of which Parks you are descended from. You don't have to know exactly where you're from to begin enjoying yourself!

Genealogy (at least for me) has been much the same way. It's an entertaining pursuit, but it doesn't have to define who you are or limit what you can do. If you enjoy history and the sound of pipes and drums, like the kilt and get along well with a particular bunch of folks, most of them won't object to you joining in the fun.

The ones that do object can kindly and quietly go polish their Kilt Police badges in a dark corner.

[gilmore]

In some cases lowland family names are not associated with clans. Wearing a district tartan of the area your family came from can be a good way to feel connected.
Scott

Lord Lyon, and the Lyon Court, who make up the rules for clans, make no distinctions between lowland and highland families/clans/houses.

[gilmore]

Thanks for the information.

About Being Korean, for the longest time I had assumed I was, not directly, maybe 3-4 times removed one of my ancestors was. Turned out they weren’t

Since you have been so nice, maybe I can ask you a more controversial question.

Since there is no unique crest, no unique motto, no unique tartan, is it possible to create one? Historically I think the answer is yes. Through out histories as families, European nobles, split off because of feuds or marriage, there were changes made to their family crest to reflect that. Flags were changed, names were altered. As we are living in history now, and there should technically be no difference between 1009ad and 2009bc, I don’t think it would be too bad of an offence to create a crest or motto for my family.

The only real difference I can see is that there would be only a handful of people it would relate to, due ot the fact that its new.

What do you think?

Arms, crests and mottoes are not created by individuals for themselves, traditionally, but granted to them by the fount of honor of their country, that is, the head of state, the crown, the sovereign. In Scotland the responsibility for doing this was given by the king to a person known as Lord Lyon who runs something called the Lyon Court, and is responsible for heraldric matters regarding Scots.

Crests are part of arms. They are the bit above the shield. The motto is also a part of the arms, and is written beneath the shield. Arms can belong to only one person at a time in the UK, including in Scotland, unless they are differenced, that is, have markings that show that the owner bears cadet arms.

If you made up your own arms---or crest and motto---some people, say, at a Rennaissance Fair, might they were clever and creative. Other people, say, at a ball at a British consulate, might think of them as ridiculous and pretentious, but would probably be too well-mannered to say anything to you directly about them.

[DamnthePants]

Thank you everyone. This has been very enlightening. I knew so little about it all. I am glad that it did not delve in to the “You can do whatever you want” argument you feared. That was not my intention at all, though I do have views that lean towards that way of thinking.

Part of me sees the subject as, if there are so many rules and regulations, and that it is near impossible to get a credible arms motto crest, what have you, that people cant get it, then history is dead. In 2000 years we will be as old as the cultures back in the year 1, and who are we to say that History has stopped. What we do now will be history. And if you don’t do it now, it just means there is less and less time to do it.

That basically means that the human nature to want something of yourself to last years and years into the future.

But I also understand that rules and regulations are in place for a reason. If there wern’t, then everything would be meaningless. I also understand that symbols are never chosen for symbol sake. The Olive Branch is not a symbol of peace because long ago some group of people decided that it SHOULD be the symbol of piece, then spread the word. Events happen and symbols emerge, almost as a way to validate them. The same way with crests and mottos. I highly doubt they were arbitrarily chosen. If I was to just pick something that looked good and I liked it, it would just be some hollow image filled with implied meaning. And I don’t want that.

So, assuming that I am a Park that is indeed the sept of the MacDonalds ( which I will now attempt to find out), then all I really need to do it my best to make myself and/or my future family have some sort of meaningful cultural significance, and have the iconography of my events naturally develop.


… that wont be that hard >.>


Thanks everyone

[Sketraw]

The motto is also a part of the arms, and is written beneath the shield.

Arms in Scotland have the motto above the crest, English Arms have them below the shield, unless its a double motto then, there is one above and below.

[dfmacliam]

I can trace my roots back to a Scottish Family... there is a family crest, and its not available anywhere... just as a work of art so to say... but thats ok... I choose to wear a clan badge that has more significance to me.. I wear the Marine Corps Clan badge... its where my loyalty lies.. I know everyone is different.. I am just saying.. this is my opinion...

If you feel you want to be part of a Clan, join the Clan Society, that your family is a sept of... it will give you a new extended family, and probably help tracing your roots, back to Scotland.. wear that clan badge with honor, and pride..

You might find yourself wearing the Thistle, the symbol of Scotland.. wearing a district tartan... wearing a Scottish National tartan.. or even a fashion tartan.. who knows.. but whatever you choose.. wear it with pride.. and with respect..

[Bugbear]

I guess it was some kind of fake family arms that they got rather than the "family crest" that I said before. I recall a shield and helmet etc... There were also some other uses of a shield and sudo-arms for something else that I remember... a blue shield outlined in gold and divided into quarters with a symbol in each.

Oh well... live and learn.