Gold Brothers, aka...

[Heather MacCain]

Hello everyone,

I would like to thank all contributors to this thread for their posts and interest into Heritage of Scotland business. Your enquiries of the origins, ethnicity and corporate structure of our company are a flattery. All these questions, however are not on topic. I have in fact offered to answer your questions, but I will try to keep the discussion relevant. What is more, off topic questions or offensive remarks will be ignored as I find no point in having a discussion with those who do not wish to maintain a certain level of this conversation. In this respect I would like to thank Panache for the watchful eye.

It is true that many of our customers are tourists and I must disagree with the argument that it makes us care less about them. Many of these people come back to us through our online shops and we get mostly positive feedback. You can easily observe it on this forum, on this very thread for which I am very grateful.

A lot of criticism voiced on this forum boils down to what some call “eastern bazaar”. Our shops in Edinburgh as well as online offer a wide range of products. We have the high-end ranges but we also sell budget items. Our offer reflects the popular demand and as Iolaus pointed out many people look mostly for souvenirs. What has also been only briefly mentioned the cheaper items have brought the kilt to the masses. Whether you buy it just for show, fun, or for everyday wear you make the kilt more popular throughout the world and raise the awareness of Scottish heritage. The Heritage of Scotland shops do offer quality items at reasonable prices. We are a large retailer and are not perfect but as I mentioned before measures are being applied continuously in order to improve our customer service. We are also working all the time at perfecting the quality of the products we sell, so that your purchases are great value for less money.

Heather

[KFCarter]

Heather,

I agree that some points raised in this thread have strayed from the topic, but they do appear to be a symptom of the strong feelings your company engenders for some folks. I agree with Panache the nature of some of those feelings are not in keeping with the spirit of XMarks and am glad he raised that issue.

There is no question that many people, including quite a few XMarkers, have done business with you and find among your selections items that suit their needs at competitive prices. And certainly there is a niche to be filled selling souvenirs to tourists at low prices. Although those items aren't for me, there are those who want them, so no problem there.

I would like you to address the subject of labeling, a subject that you did not address in your most recent post.

I think your company could do much toward diminishing the complaints it receives if it were to fully and precisely label what it sells. Could you tell us what would be wrong about putting "Made in Pakistan" (or made in whatever country of manufacture) on the label of a kilt if that is, in fact, where it is made? It seems like a simple, forthright step that would defuse many, many complaints.

As to the complaints about the style of your stores, particularly those in a Historic District like the Royal Mile, I can only say those types of issues are best dealt with by the local community and local government. I am obviously not a resident of Edinburgh, but I would like to share my experience with similar issues in my town of Savannah, Georgia, because I think they are somewhat relevant.

Over the years, many merchants in our own Historic District, particularly along River Street, have found it profitable to sell inexpensive t-shirts and trinkets, with the restaurants and bars focusing on overpriced food and cheap beer. It has been a successful niche for them over the short term, but over the long term it has driven the local trade away from River Street entirely. It has also now begun to deter tourists who are drawn to some of the more "high-end" hotels and an unnatural divide has arisen between River Street and the rest of the Historic District that is not proving beneficial for those River Street merchants. In addition, the perceived "tackiness" of these stores, and the atmosphere they create in what had been a beautiful and historically important part of the City, has begun to create a backlash. Local residents and City alderman and administrators now tinker with ordinances designed to stem the "tacky" tide. It seems the more they try to regulate it, the harder business becomes for everyone. Progress is being made, in a "two-steps forward, one step back" sort of way, but it would have been better resolved, IMHO, if the businesses had practiced some self-regulation given the sensitive nature of the historic area in which they were located.

You can't please everyone, no business can do that. But I do think there are some steps that could be taken in a visible way to improve relations with not only your customers, but the wider community in which you live and do business. Failure to focus on the wider concerns of the community may not hit your bottom line over the short haul, but at the very least community concerns provide an unnecessary "head-wind" for your company and stirs the discontent of those with legitimate complaints, and also provides traction for those who have other motives. In the long term, that "head-wind" can become a serious problem.

Again, I appreciate your willingness to address these questions and look forward to your thoughts, particularly on the question of labeling.

regards
Ken

[Tartan Hiker]

Excellent post, Ken.

[MacKay71 Wife]

Heather, first of all let me say that I appreciate you continuing to respond in a professional, calm and "lady-like" manner in what has become a difficult discussion. You are to be personally commended.

Continuing to beat a dead horse : I think in his several posts, KFCarter has hit the nail squarely on the head. His example of Savannah, Ga., River Street is very on target. I am a native of Georgia and call Savannah my second home. Over the years, we always made it a practice to hit River Street first upon arriving in town and would make quite frequent return forays during our trip. However, over the past several years, I will only go to River Street once or twice to eat at a particular old restaurant, and I can't remember the last time I made a purchase in ANY of the shops!
Buyer beware always! Businesses have always "spun" their advertising and will continue to do so as long as there is breath in their marketing departments. Most of the time "spin" can be a positive thing, however in this case, it appears that most people are saying "if you don't have anything to hide, don't hide it." Avoiding the appearance of.... in the long run is more beneficial to the health of your company and the character of all of us. Presenting a less than truthful front, even when your intent is not to be dishonest, lessens us all.

My personal experience with Gold Bros is this: Around this time last year, I made a purchase for my husband on eBay (not a kilt, but another accessory). As I have been quite successful finding sales and good deals on eBay, the low price did not at first seem such a big deal. I did, however, go to all the trouble to contact the merchant, who shall remain nameless, and question them about the "Made in Scotland" label, where the wool came from and the fiber content of the item. To be perfectly honest, I was asking more from curiosity at that point than anything else. I was told the item really was made in Scotland, was 16 oz wool, and the tartan was from Lochcarron. When the item arrived, it had a label in it that said "Designed in Scotland", the feel of it was obviously NOT 16 oz. wool and was definitely NOT from Lochcarron as the sett of the tartan wasn't even right. When I re-questioned the merchant, they said it was from Gold Bros. and that was all they knew. I returned the item and reported them to eBay, because at that point I felt like they had deliberately and knowingly lied to me. The upshot of this is that if they had told me the truth in the first place, I probably still would have bought the item, but I would have bought it knowing exactly what I was getting. I will not in the forseeable future purchase anything from that merchant and am now wary of purchasing ANYTHING that says "Made in Scotland". For now, I will depend on what I can get through Matt Newsome or from someone he recommends as he has always had, in my opinion, the highest of integrity.

[highlander_Daz]

I apolopogise if my comments have appered disrespectful however I would like to put forward my perspective, particulally for Overseas Xmarkers or people how have not visited the Royal mile.

bear in mind most of the products sold are symbols of HIGHLAND culture, not just generic Scottish, now Imagine if I travelled to the united States, an area with a high population of Native Americans, Imagine if I visited a garish gift shop selling Native American "souveniers" many of which could be considered "tacky" or cheap versions copies of more authentic souvineers made by native Americans . Imagine that the store is owned and staffed by, for example chinese people, some of whom had adopted native American sounding names, would our American xmarkers not ask Why ?

would any xmarkers think that a Native American might be forgiven for being offended that symbols of his culture were being used to sell tacky souveniers? . and that possibly the people selling them were not 100% respectful of Native american culture.

this is how I feel when I see symbols of ighland culture being used in this way, I have to say that Its not GB that are doing this, and I respect that GB are very astute business people, that obviously cater for demand. I have made my point and put my views across, I hope in a reasoned way, I feel very strongly about how Highland and Scottish culture is presented. Im dissapointed that Heather chose to sidestep my questions.

[BEEDEE]

We think this forum plays a useful role in understanding the Gold Bros and might, in the long run, cause some changes in their business practices. Like it or or not they are a significant player in the Scottish apparel scene.

Consequently, we are reluctant to close it, but will continue to monitor it closely.

Any further direct attacks and off topic posts will be deleted . Members should use the PM system if they have specific issues related to their transactions with GB.

Brian & the Mod Squad

[ForresterModern]

Imagine if I travelled to the united States, an area with a high population of Native Americans, Imagine if I visited a garish gift shop selling Native American "souveniers" many of which could be considered "tacky" or cheap versions copies of more authentic souvineers made by native Americans . Imagine that the store is owned and staffed by, for example chinese people, some of whom had adopted native American sounding names, would our American xmarkers not ask Why ? would any xmarkers think that a Native American might be forgiven for being offended that symbols of his culture were being used to sell tacky souveniers? . and that possibly the people selling them were not 100% respectful of Native american culture.

Having just spent nearly two years in the American Southwest and done a lot of tourist and other touring of the area your description above unfortunately describes probably 90% of the retail establishments in the major tourist areas---Scottsdale, Sedona, Grand Canyon, Santa Fe, and the areas surrounding many of our national parks. Are the natives unhappy with it? Yes, certainly, but business is indeed business, and just becasue something looks like it is Native American does not make it so, but people will still buy it because they want it whether or not it says it is made by native americans. The only way to be sure is to buy it yourself from the source, and many native americans have roadside stalls or tribal area markets where they personally sell their goods. But even there sometimes some of those goods are not really authentic either, as I have seen items sold under these circumstances that were clearly marked as not being of native american origin.

In a market economy there are three major factors that play into any purchase: cost, quality, and time (in the retail business this equates to "off the peg" vs "custom built" but also to how accessible the items are to the buyer, i.e., how easy is it to find a store selling what you want at the price you want. This last aspect explains why one company may flood a tourist area with multiple outlets all selling the same or similar items for the same prices----it sets an apparent standard base price if you see it in multiple stores at that price. Cost is always an issue, and most folks want to get things as cheaply as possible, although some are willing to pay more if they know that the quality is significantly better. Quality is one place where things become most polarized-----some want it cheap regardless of quality simply because they don't know any better or don't care/it doesn't matter in their particular circumstances (read typical tourists). Others who are more knowledgeable in the area will require quality above all else, paying top prices and waiting many months for a custom high quality piece of artisan workmanship (check Matt or Barb's waiting lists). But as the old saying goes, in the retail game of cost, quality and time, choose any two becasue you will pay in the way of the third. Tourists want it cheap and available (cost and time) and therefore sacrifice quality. Some of us want quality first at a reasonable cost and are willing to wait in the queues for months on end for our custom kilts. Others may need quality in a timely fashion (gotta have a kilt in this tartan in this size in 6 weeks for my wedding) and are going to pay extra for the rush order to meet those desires.

Folks like the Gold Bros are meeting the needs of those tourists with their products at that end of the spectrum, and that is where most of their business success comes from. They also have the ability to meet some of our more discerning tastes with higher quality items that either cost more to keep in stock (for availability---the time part) or are less expensive but still good quality (some of the custom kilts they make or fabrics they can get woven), whereupon you must wait until they can get those items made up custom. The tourists and others who buy the low end stuff could care less where it comes from, so the labelling issue is really moot.

An example of the labelling issue being moot: A kilt is a piece of historically handsewn traditional scottish highlandwear. How often is the fabric woven by a mill actually located in the Highlands? How often is a kilt handsewn by a real native highlander who still lives and works in the highlands (certainly not Barb or Matt)? Even in Scotland? Although many of us do own handsewns from various talented kiltmakers, honestly what percentage of all kilts, even if we restict this to traditional 8yd wool kilts, are handsewn vs machine sewn? So when you get down to it we are all "poseurs" to a different degree, since we can probably count on two hands those active in this forum who have and wear kilts made of wool raised in the highlands, woven into tartan in a highlands mill, handsewn by a native highlander who still lives and works in the highlands. But nobody worries about labelling those facts in each and every kilt sold in the world. Should a handsewn kilt from Scotland made of "english" Marton Mills tartan not be considered "scottish" and therefor require full disclosure of the origin of each and every part and stitch? Is it not "made in Scotland" if say the lining fabric or buckles or thread used to sew it are not made in Scotland? It can get a bit ridiculous.

Designed in Scotland means just that---the basic design is scottish---and nothing else. I think it is reasonable to assume nothing else about a product unless the labelling specifically specifies content, manufacture, care, or site of origin.

There endeth the rant.

[KFCarter]

An example of the labelling issue being moot: A kilt is a piece of historically handsewn traditional scottish highlandwear. How often is the fabric woven by a mill actually located in the Highlands? How often is a kilt handsewn by a real native highlander who still lives and works in the highlands (certainly not Barb or Matt)? Even in Scotland? Although many of us do own handsewns from various talented kiltmakers, honestly what percentage of all kilts, even if we restict this to traditional 8yd wool kilts, are handsewn vs machine sewn? So when you get down to it we are all "poseurs" to a different degree, since we can probably count on two hands those active in this forum who have and wear kilts made of wool raised in the highlands, woven into tartan in a highlands mill, handsewn by a native highlander who still lives and works in the highlands.

The concept of "labeling being moot" raises a lot of questions for me:

I think the labeling issue has nothing to do with whether or not a kilt-buyer is a "poseur". Labeling has to do with someone having the opportunity to know what they're buying before they buy it. While the last example (quoted above) is a bit extreme, I suppose there could be a kilt-buyer to whom those factors would matter... perhaps unlikely, but possible. But let's say that level of information is an extreme expectation... what level of information is reasonable?

At what factor do you draw the line when deciding the desire for information is a bit ridiculous? Does it not matter to know whether a kilt is hand sewn or machine sewn? Made of acrylic or PV or wool? Would you continue to respect some of our best-known kiltmakers if they refused to tell you where their wool came from? What if you discovered that a trusted kiltmaker wasn't actually making your kilt, but farming it out to someone that didn't possess their level of training and expertise? And, importantly, if labels don't matter, then doesn't that undercut the efforts of those highly respected makers who do go out of their way to make sure we know what exactly what we're getting from them so we can make our own "value judgement"? If that information is important when it comes from them, why is it meaningless coming from someone else in the marketplace?

As for those buyers who don't want or don't care about that level of information, well they're free, of course, to ignore the information on the label and do as they please. But to dismiss accurate labeling means we all have to sign up to operate in the "fluid-fact" zone that the less discerning customer blithely operates in, and just accept that we're joining them in a relentless race to the bottom in terms of quality.

You're right about "cost, quality and time", but ultimately, I wonder how a consumer is supposed to know if they're getting the two factors they've chosen if critical information about the product is missing or misleading?

[ForresterModern]

Ken

I think we are arguing degrees of expectation. You want to deal with a quality kiltmaker so you go out of your way to insure that they will handsew you kilt of the proper tartan, weight, and manufacturer of wool fabric, trusting that they will indeed handsew it themselves of that fabric in the correct pattern and size. That kiltmaker has the right to label their kilt as being handsewn by them and of what material etc. They can put all the information they want on their label, as long as it is true, but do they have to? If kiltmaker Cindy Lou MacWho normally works from his/her workshop in Glen Who and labels her kilts with her handsewn UK tartan made in Scotland by Cindy Lou MacWho labels, great, all the better for her and for you who buys your kilt from her. Maybe all those folks who do follow the traditions should brag about it and advertise POSITIVELY their attributes, educationg the public to the value of those attributes, and maybe the public will become more discerning along the way. Lord knows we all have on this forum from this kind of information sharing and open discourse, and that is why we are less likely to buy the "designed in Scotland" kilt without knowing more specific details about it that may be relevant to our needs. We have the right to ask the vendor for more information, and under those circumstances they should pony up the right answers or lose our business. But just exactly how much manufacture, content, and origin information is absolutely required on labelling for those kilts is a very slippery slope. MacDonalds (the restaurant chain, not the clan) publishes its nutritional data for all its food offerings, but is not required to stamp it on every Big Mac bun, each container of fries, and each Chicken Nugget. But it is (generally) supposed to be available in the store for the asking. Those who care will inquire and choose accordingly, those who don't won't. Same with the "designed in Scotland" label argument.

Caveat emptor rules---it is the consumer's responsibility, except for expected and legislated safety issues, to research his/her own purchases to the degree that he/she desires. The vendor only has minimal requirements of disclosure, as described by law, and is not bound to go further if they so choose. What you and I know about quality is that those quality vendors WILL go farther and give the information we want up front, BUT THEY DO SO VOLUNTARILY, and that is why discerning customers will choose to use them instead.

j

[MacKay71 Wife]

Please take the following comments as intended - in the nicest, calmest, non-confrontational, most straightforward way my Southern voice can put it!

All I'm asking is that a merchant (whoever that might be) tell me the truth about the article that I'm buying, ie: what it is, where it comes from, what it's made out of, etc. and let me make an informed decision as to whether I will make the purchase or not. Sometimes, I will choose to buy the cheaper, less quality, less authentic item for different reasons at different times, but that decision needs to be mine.
My comments about eBay were intended only as an example of what can happen to credibility to an entire industry when a merchant is less than truthful. To be perfectly honest, them telling me the item came from Gold Bros could very well have been another lie. The comments were not about Gold Bros per se, and I sincerely apologize that it appeared to come out like that. Because of that incident, and because I have never been to Scotland myself, I am now wary of making purchases from ANY merchant purporting to have "Made in Scotland" merchandise. This is no different than the wariness I have for a certain fabric maker who at one time made cheap knock-offs of a quality quilt material that then fell apart after several washings.

So, I think proper labeling is extremely important. If HoS takes this forum and uses it to improve their service, labeling, etc. More power to them, and may other companies follow their example! And in the end, we ALL benefit from that!

Let ME make the decision as to what quality to buy and how much to spend, but do not attempt to mislead me, whether on purpose or not!