Theory and practice.

[Jock Scot]

Jock,

Thinking about some of the photos that Robertson (Pour1Malt) has posted on XMTS it would seem that even among the Scots themselves there is a a pretty wide variety of ways the kilt is worn. Including some items like "Jacobite" shirts and white hose. One thing that has also struck me is the use of formal sporrans for day wear.

Meaning absolutely no disrespect here as I truly value your posts and like you (even if you are a bit crusty ) I would like to ask you if you see a shift/ digression in Scotland itself with the younger generation of Scots not carrying on the conventions of highland dress that their fathers did?

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

I will try to answer all the questions that others have asked--give me time!

Now Jamie! I think youngsters, as all free thinking youngsters should do, will push at the boundaries. I did when I was 16 going on 25 and 25 going on 16! I think the modern youngster as he gets older will revert back to the traditional attire in due course, maybe with a modest adjustment here and there.

One of the advantages of being my age and there are few let me tell you, is that I have seen many(too many perhaps) go through the rebellious teenage years and on through life and amazingly the most conservative dressers and sticklers for correctness are 40 year olds! It seems when you get to nearly 70 you can have the confidence to "bend" a few conventions and get away with it!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Oh Matt you prove my point exactly! The historical facts are precisely as you say and no one should dispute that, including this "dogmatic" Scot(lol)!


The history books and the theory of district tartans is therefore beyond dispute.

The practice, however, in real life Scotland, today, says that they are almost irrelevant here. This may not be what you want to hear, but I have no doubts whatsoever what I say is correct. Dogmatic that maybe, but right, nevertheless.

As I said in another thread where this subject was brought up, I really don't think there is much different between Scotland and America when it comes to this particular point. District tartans are a bit of a "black sheep" of the tartan family. Most people, if they know anything about tartan at all, think of it purely as a "clan thing." This is true in both Scotland and America. Those in both countries who have taken the time to learn a bit more about tartan will have heard or read about district tartans, but for most they will be "outside the norm" to be sure!

I think one thing that has so far gone unstated, but is an important factor, is the underlying assumption that a native Scot will, by virtue of his or her place of birth, be more of an expert on the kilt than someone from outwith Scotland.

As you and I know, this is not at all true. My being born in the USA does not make me an expert on cowboys! I've met folks from Europe who could talk circles around me when it comes to the history of my native country!

But the common perception -- at least that I encounter here in the states -- is that a Scot automatically is more of an authority.

I think when people read my writings about Highland dress many assume I speak with a Scottish accent. When they meet me in person and discover I was born and raised in North Carolina they are often dissapointed!

One case in point is the aformentioned example I related about the Scottish woman who insisted that the only proper footwear with the kilt were ghillie brogues, period. There was a young man in our gift shop being outfitted and he was asking about shoes. I was trying to tell him about the various different options that might look good with his kilt outfit, but this Scottish woman overheard and would have none of it! She was absolutely astounded that I might suggest to him that anything other than ghillies were appropriate. That simply was not how it was done in Scotland, she assured us.

The young man eneded up buying a pair of ghillie brogues. Good for us, I suppose, because the Scots woman inadvertantly made a sale for us. :-) But he obviously believed her over me and I could tell in the rest of our conversation that he was taking every word out of my mouth with a grain of salt. It did not matter that I've made a career out of studying Highland dress or been recognized internationally for my study into tartan and Highland dress traditions. I was an American. She was a Scot. Therefore she knew better than I did.

I've encountered similar situations numerous times. So I think often when you say things like "district tartans aren't recognized by most Scots," there is an underlying tendency by many outside of Scotland to come to the conclusion that "because most Scots don't recognize them, they are therefore incorrect," simply because -- right or wrong -- to many simply being from Scotland makes you a knowledgable authority in this subject.

[Kid Cossack]

I don't have much that is directly on point to contribute. The dribs and dabs I have to contribute are as follows: I very seldom am attired in "full fig" Highland dress, but I am very frequently kilted. My taste in kilts has continuously evolved since I began wearing them, and I am edging closer and closer to a more traditional style of kilts.

The main thing I wished to note is how much I enjoy this discussion, and its tone. The internet is so often home to rancorous "and yer ugly too!" style jibes. This discussion is a reflection of what I like about X-marks: civil debate, what a concept.

[Jock Scot]

Matt, I think that you will have seen on the "other" thread that I have readily accepted that not all Scots know about their past. I have also made the point on this thread that I am not always right. Nevertheless wherever the knowledge comes from in the world we do have to accept that some of us do know what we are talking about. Be that, Chinese, American, Scots, or wherever. I do not doubt your credentials on theoretical and historical knowledge of highland tartans and attire for one second, where I, respectfully, take issue with you is the relevance of that knowledge to a modern Highland Scots attire in the Scotland of today.

[Jaggy thistle]

Iam of the rough and ready class of kilt wearers ,a kilt should have its pleats at the back, it should come to the top or middle of the knee ,itshould be worn with a sporran ,it should be of tartan or checked cloth I personally like 8 yards of cloth but there is evidence of much smller amounts I will quote from abook I have just read Isolation shepherd by Ian Thompson [Half way down the Strathmore we met two giant shepherds Hector MacLennan [Eachin Mhor i.e. big Hector] and john mc Gileas typical sons of the North Eachin standing well over six feet and proportionately framed appeared an imposing figurein his rough Highland garb. Hiskilt consisted of only a yard and a half of cloth ,with three broad pleats across the buttocks .A sporran made from deer skin, a thick tweed jacket and vest a Tam o Shanter bonnet with a massive red tassel,strong heavy home made shoes, and stockings spun and knitted by his wife . ] this show that the working garb of the Highland man was much different to what we wear today . I think formal wear can also be tailord to the indeviduals preferance ththat oun and knitted by his wife

[macwilkin]

Matt, I think that you will have seen on the "other" thread that I have readily accepted that not all Scots know about their past. I have also made the point on this thread that I am not always right. Nevertheless wherever the knowledge comes from in the world we do have to accept that some of us do know what we are talking about. Be that, Chinese, American, Scots, or wherever. I do not doubt your credentials on theoretical and historical knowledge of highland tartans and attire for one second, where I, respectfully, take issue with you is the relevance of that knowledge to a modern Highland Scots attire in the Scotland of today.

Jock,

Respectfully: as a history teacher, I frequently am forced to defend my profession to my students, who do not see the value of learning it. History, be it the history of a nation or the history of Highland dress does have value in the fact that it shows how we have evolved over time. While I agree and support your comments that the traditions and customs of Highland dress are important, a knowledge of their origin only adds to that respect.

I agree 100% that the traditional Highland dress should be respected and appreciated -- and understood, not just taken at face-value. While not everyone appreciates history, history nevertheless is relevant to some, and that interest, avocation and for some of us, vocation, should be just as respected as your passion for Highland attire. I do not see them as contradictory, but rather complimentary.

I remember a conversation we had a while ago about the Glosters at the Imjin in Korea. Some would say "Who cares? That happened years ago." We know the difference. Such stories of regimental history can inspire the squaddie of today -- witness the bayonet charge of a squad of Argylls in Iraq several years ago, which has now been added to the Thin Red Line, New Orleans, Major Muir and Hill 282 and Mad Mitch in the Crater, just as knowing the history of Highland Dress can inspire those today to wear it with respect and pride.

Again, respectfully,

Todd

[Jock Scot]

Todd I have great respect for history and the lessons that can be learned from it. Not all of it is relevant though in todays world. Now Matt seems to think that box pleated kilts(not the military box pleat) and district tartans(yes we have already had this discussion!) have relevance in the Scotland of today.I and others beg to differ.

[Jordan]

I think i'll add my tuppence here. I am like a few have already said more laid back im most ofter wearing a tshirt and boots with my kilt's beacuse most of my time kilted im doing stuff (shops etc). Even though I live about an hour down the road from Jock ive never really had anyone sit down and say wear a kilt with X Y Z. However i do own a PC (which ive never worn) and i know that for more formal event if im ever invited to any that i need to "Dress up" and look smarter. I also know i shouldnt have bought my PC and should have bought a less formal jacket to suit my needs. So as has been said above just beacuse im from Scotland doesnt mean im an expert infact im more likely to ask the experts on here for advice if/when im stuck on anything.

I think the point im trying to get across is. If im going to a wedding or dressing up for any reason ill try to emulate passable highland wear with what i have or can get, And i will try to follow what rules or guidelines i can. But most of the time im kilted with my tshirt in boots the only relation i have to traditional highland wear is that im in the highlands

Jordan

[macwilkin]

Todd I have great respect for history and the lessons that can be learned from it. Not all of it is relevant though in todays world. Now Matt seems to think that box pleated kilts(not the military box pleat) and district tartans(yes we have already had this discussion!) have relevance in the Scotland of today.I and others beg to differ.

I can't speak for Matt, Jock, but the way I see it, he's acknowledged your points -- but at the same time, he's pointing out the historical nature of both in relation to the evolution of Highland dress, a point that you have acknowledged as well. From a historian's point-of-view, Matt has made a good argument, just as you have. At the end of the day, everyone benefits from two points-of-view which are not as dissimilar as you might think.

I think you have to look at the end rather than the means, and in the end, both you and Matt share a passion for Highland attire and want to see it respected -- the means to that end are different, but correct in their own way.

Respectfully,

Todd

[lethearen]

I really enjoy reading the posts Jock Scot puts up for us here... I'd have to say they're some of the highlights that keep me actively reading the forums. His voice is invaluable when it comes to seeing how things "should" be done in tradition, because he's lived that tradition. And while tradition does in fact evolve, one has to keep an open eye to its history.

I personally don't adhere to the strict dresscode of Highland Attire. I'll take my own interpretation that works for me in a given circumstance. That's not to say "to heck with Jock and his oppressive rules!" Far from it. Even if I don't follow them exactly, they still form good guidelines.

To analogize away from kilts, I'll mention colour pairing. In specific, blue and black, or even brown and black. Once upon a time, the two colours "went" together just fine. Or even just no one cared... At some point, they became taboo pairings. And in reading I've done recently, blue and black are once again ok to wear together. Fashion changes... but what happens because of it?

I have a dozen shoes in varying shades of blacks, browns, and even burgandies... two score ties of different patterns and colours and designs... all to be "right" in certain circumstances. When my purposes require me to be in the costume of business or fashion, those are the rules that I've got to follow. But when I don't feel bound by those restrictions -- lazing about, or just going about my personal business -- I'm not nearly as concerned about convention and will wear whatever I think looks good. In a way I do wish that the going fashion weren't quite as casual, but that's another rant.

I look at the kilt in the same way. That garment lives two lives in my wardrobe. For a night on the town or social gathering, I'll look to our more traditional members here for direction. Even if I can't/don't follow their formulae to the tee, I'd like to think that I at least give a good nod to tradition, and I'm working on improving that part of my wardrobe, as well.

If I ever take the opportunity to attend an event where traditional attire would be expected or really appreciated, then you can be sure I'll be doing my best to get it right.

But running errands, or just out for a walk in the Texas summer heat, or lazing about my apartment? A t-shirt and some casual shoes w/ scrunched socks will serve my needs. In doing so, I know that I'm not following traditional fashion convention, just like when I wear black Docs and white socks with my khakis I'm not following modern fashion convention.

I had a point when I started writing this But as it has by now eluded me, I'll just leave off saying that your musings, Jock, are greatly appreciated by the members here, even to some of us who don't necessarily abide by them wholly. It's important to at least know the rules before one goes about breaking them