Theory and practice.

[BEEDEE]

Matt...I do not doubt your credentials on theoretical and historical knowledge of highland tartans and attire for one second, where I, respectfully, take issue with you is the relevance of that knowledge to a modern Highland Scots attire in the Scotland of today.

Jock, I've been following this thread with interest. My concern is that it is full of rhetoric and not full of examples. Frankly, I have a problem with visualizing what you consider 'modern Highland Scots attire'. Is it jacket, waistcoat, kilt etc like this?



Perhaps if you and some of the other Scots would post photos as examples we would much better understand what is being discussed and be able to contribute in a meaningful way.

As to the relevance of District Tartans to the modern Scot, I accept your comments. However, let me pose a conundrum faced by those of us not in Scotland. My GGF was Roderick McRae from Rogart in Sutherlandshire. He was some 120+ miles from the ancestral home of Clan MacRae and at least the second generation living there. He was dispossessed by the Earl and Countess of Sutherland during the clearances and went to Canada. Presumably, he had some allegiance through a tacksman to Clan Sutherland. If I was to get only one kilt, would you recommend I get a kilt in MacRae tartan, Clan Sutherland or Sutherland District which is distinct from the Clan tartan and dates back to the early 18th century according to Gordon Teall of Teallach?

Brian

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

No insult is met to any person by the way that I dress myself, and I don't know what else to say to someone who is offended by my perceived debasement of their culture.

Usually a polite smile, and saying something like "I'm dreadfully sorry. I meant no offense." will suffice. Anything else merely becomes argumentative, and is a waste of your time as well as that of the offended party.

Those who refuse to accept an apology are exactly like those who refuse to give one-- they are not gentlemen.

[Panache]

Whether Scot or American, staunch traditionalist or daring modernist, formal or casual, costume or clothing, there is one thing we can all agree on

No other garment has the incredible versatility of the kilt!




Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

[Peter C.]

Jock,

Thinking about some of the photos that Robertson (Pour1Malt) has posted on XMTS it would seem that even among the Scots themselves there is a a pretty wide variety of ways the kilt is worn. Including some items like "Jacobite" shirts and white hose. One thing that has also struck me is the use of formal sporrans for day wear.

Meaning absolutely no disrespect here as I truly value your posts and like you (even if you are a bit crusty ) I would like to ask you if you see a shift/ digression in Scotland itself with the younger generation of Scots not carrying on the conventions of highland dress that their fathers did?

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

I was of the impression that most of the people in photos that Robertson has posted were visiting his guest house from outside of Scotland. It has been my experience that you seldom see indigenous Scots wearing kilts.

Peter

[St. Amish]

Whether Scot or American, staunch traditionalist or daring modernist, formal or casual, costume or clothing, there is one thing we can all agree on

No other garment has the incredible versatility of the kilt!

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

Agreed.

[BoldHighlander]

Whether Scot or American, staunch traditionalist or daring modernist, formal or casual, costume or clothing, there is one thing we can all agree on

No other garment has the incredible versatility of the kilt!

Indeed Jamie, and no matter the style you wear it all with real Panache!

[Panache]

I was of the impression that most of the people in photos that Robertson has posted were visiting his guest house from outside of Scotland. It has been my experience that you seldom see indigenous Scots wearing kilts.

Peter

Hi Peter

Actually I wasn't thinking of any of the Ferintosh photos at all

But Robertson always attends the "Wickerman" festival and numerous other events attended by young Scots.

This is where I had seen the items I listed

Actually most of the X Markers visiting his guest house seem pretty traditionally (and well) turned out.

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

[Nighthawk]

Usually a polite smile, and saying something like "I'm dreadfully sorry. I meant no offense." will suffice. Anything else merely becomes argumentative, and is a waste of your time as well as that of the offended party.

Those who refuse to accept an apology are exactly like those who refuse to give one-- they are not gentlemen.

Maybe I'm not a gentleman, then, because I feel no need at all to apologize for who I am. I have a fierce pride in my heritage that I will take to my grave. I am of Scots ancestry, but I am also an American, and more to the point, a Coloradoan. If it offends you that I wear a Colorado state tartan kilt, and also a MacLeod kilt, well, that's your problem. I honor my home, I honor my heritage, and I say it's your own problem because there is no way any reasonable person could possibly be offended by it! Will I wear my evening wear sporran and sgain dubh to the pub with a tshirt and combat boots? Of course not! I do observe customs of etiquette. However I will happily wear my Amerikilt with my boots and an Iron Maiden t shirt. How does that in any way cheapen the culture that spawned me? the way I see things, diversity can only build and enhance a culture- right? Maybe variety and diversity being virtues are American ideals- I don't know- but I personally like the variety. Does this mean that I will totally ignore the rules of etiquiette? Don't be rediculous. Of course I won't. However, in my day to day life, strict traditional dress of any sort is impractical. So I will adapt it as need be in order to make my mode of dress practical. When I go to a Burns supper, I will of course be dressed in a very traditional manner. But when I go to Rookies to watch the Denver Broncos this Sunday? Seriously- would a jacket and tie be appropriate at all? Fashion changes, fashion evolves- all fashion. Progress is inevitable. Progress is good. Remembering our roots is an absolute must- holding true to tradition is an absolute must- but not getting left behind is also an absolute must. Remember who we were, but don't be bound be the past- that can only hurt our future. (Jaime- you, sir, are a prime example of what I'm talking about! That leather jacket is killer! I love my leather duster, myself- but it covers my pleats! )

[NewGuise]

I have great respect for history and the lessons that can be learned from it. Not all of it is relevant though in todays world.

Personally, as a cultural historian of sorts, I think that all history is relevant, including the weirdest of exceptions to any and all cultural rules. And I think that rules are made to be broken. However, I am grateful to Jock and Matt alike - and to many others here - for outlining those rules, some known (possibly wilful) exceptions, and the histories and cultural contexts that inform them.

Context matters. I worked in Lille, northern France, for a month this summer. The weather was unusually warm (for that region), and I had brought shorts along, since I often wear such here in Canada. I swiftly discovered that no one there over the age of about 22 ever wore shorts, aside from North American tourists and a few obvious non-conformists. I am not known for my conformity to social convention, but those shorts disappeared into my suitcase. They reemerged later, once I was in the countryside and obviously on vacation; there the shorts did not look remotely out of place to anyone.

Here in Canada, a casual kilt with sneakers and t-shirt appears no more or less unusual (or culturally right or wrong) than a full tank. But while one can get away with virtually anything, I personally like to know what I'm getting away with. I break grammatical rules all the time, but I know those rules and their (often strange) histories.

If I am ever questioned as to why I am wearing a 4-yard box pleated non-clan-tartan kilt rather than something else, I can answer that I find it comfortable. But I can also talk about history and culture and more, if the questioner really wants to know. My personal preference happens to be based on that stuff, too - stuff I am continuing to learn about here on XMarks, from Jock and Matt and others. And I thank you all.

Without differences of opinion and interpretation, without awareness of fraught and conflicting histories, we would be a poor lot indeed.

[Jock Scot]

Jock, I've been following this thread with interest. My concern is that it is full of rhetoric and not full of examples. Frankly, I have a problem with visualizing what you consider 'modern Highland Scots attire'. Is it jacket, waistcoat, kilt etc like this?



Perhaps if you and some of the other Scots would post photos as examples we would much better understand what is being discussed and be able to contribute in a meaningful way.

As to the relevance of District Tartans to the modern Scot, I accept your comments. However, let me pose a conundrum faced by those of us not in Scotland. My GGF was Roderick McRae from Rogart in Sutherlandshire. He was some 120+ miles from the ancestral home of Clan MacRae and at least the second generation living there. He was dispossessed by the Earl and Countess of Sutherland during the clearances and went to Canada. Presumably, he had some allegiance through a tacksman to Clan Sutherland. If I was to get only one kilt, would you recommend I get a kilt in MacRae tartan, Clan Sutherland or Sutherland District which is distinct from the Clan tartan and dates back to the early 18th century according to Gordon Teall of Teallach?

Brian

In truth I had no idea that there was a Sutherland(there is no "shire" at the end BTW) district tartan and if I had another choice such as a clan tartan I would go for that. I am not at all sure, in your case, I would want to wear a Sutherland clan tartan particularly as I had a connection to the MacRae, which is the one that I would go for.

As to your first point.You are missing my point and you are making my point! I am not talking about photographic evidence here, I am talking about a perception.To recap.

THE PERCEPTION.Whilst not forgetting the other points in my opening post. We do seem to be concentrating on this bit. The modern Scot has this idea of what a "real" kilt is :.....it is an 8 yard,wool, clan tartan,knife pleated,(to the sett, although I doubt that most would know what that was) ------a tank if you like. Anything else is not a "real" kilt. Yes they might own a 5 yard kilt for bumming around in,although I doubt it in most cases,but to them a "real" kilt is the 8 yard job. District tartans? Never heard of them!They would proclaim.

THE THEORY.Now the likes of Matt armed with his wonderful armoury of historical facts is quite correct to say and he does "aha wait a minute the box pleat was around before the knife pleat and some district tartans are at least as old as the oldest clan tartans. So a box pleated kilt is just as(and even more so) real as any other style of kilt and district tartans are as relevant as they always have been." He is right.He also has the evidence to back it up.

THE PRACTICE. What I and others are saying is that Matt's information is largely unknown here in Scotland by most Scots. Therefore the Modern Scot thinks a "real" kilt is the 8 yard, clan tartan,wool, knife pleated,etc is the only choice there is for the "real deal". He may,I repeat, may have a five yard kilt to go to a football match or whatever that is true, but that, in his view, is not a "real" kilt.Box pleats? District tartans? What are they? Never heard of them would be the majority reply.