Buyer Beware

[SteveB]

Gentlepeople,

Let us try to keep with the OP. Buyer Beware. There are many factors involved in every product or service that we buy.

The cost of each item manufactured has four things to be considered: 1. The cost of materials, 2. The cost of Labour, 3. The cost of gouvernment, and 4. The cost of facility (commonly referred to as "overhead").

Having worked in Manufacturing in the U.S., it most pleased my employer when the NAFTA went through. A manufacturer in Ontario Province was able to increase his margin on products and lower the price by outsourcing the manufacture of his products to a country with a lot less labour, and gouvernment costs - the United States. For many years one of our production facilities was devoted to the making of these Canadian products to the exacting specifications of the Canadian firm. The packaging did not change except for the small type on one edge of the box that said "Manufactured in the U.S.A." in both English and French. Even with the costs of transport, it was about half the cost to do the same thing in Massachusetts as it was in Ontario. The consumer was getting the exact materials and quality, but at a lower cost. The Canadian manufacturer was very upfront with the whole deal. There were no surprises for the consumer.

Sometimes the outsourcing works. But often enough there are those that do not market in an honest fashion.

Slainte

[M. A. C. Newsome]

All the comments in this thread have been good. But I just want to reiterate my main point, which is about truth in advertising and ethical business practices.

The concept of quality and "you get what you pay for" has been discussed before, as have the relative merits of inexpensive goods.

But that's not really the subject of this post. I don't think that anyone would expect a $149 doublet to be the same (or even close) quality to one that costs 540 pounds. No one should think these are the same garments.

The point is that one should not be selling a $149 doublet by showing a picture of a 540 pound doublet. That's unethical. Moreover, it's not even their own picture of the 540 pound doublet. It is not even as if they bought a higher quality item to use in their photographs. They copied the picture straight off of Highland Clans website. That's just stupid. Now, not only are they intentionally misrepresenting their product (unethical), but anyone who has seen the other web site can easily tell what they are doing (stupid).

While there are people who won't buy cheap goods from Pakistan either because they are a) cheap, or b) made in Pakistan, what I'm saying here really doesn't have anything to do with cost, or where they are made. What I'm saying here is don't by from suppliers that are unethical and stupid.

[Chas]

While there are people who won't buy cheap goods from Pakistan either because they are a) cheap, or b) made in Pakistan, what I'm saying here really doesn't have anything to do with cost, or where they are made. What I'm saying here is don't by from suppliers that are unethical and stupid.

While I agree with you, I don't know who these people are; if their business practises are unethical, they are certainly not going to tell me about it.

Is it time that we (XMTS), draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. If all our retailers agree on a code of business practise, we could use it to either coerce or beat into submition all those traders that we find that are falling below the line.

I do not know how this would work in practice, but if a company like Great HighlandWear were to be told that potentially 10,000 people would NOT be buying from them, wouldn't they take notice?

Regards

Chas

[Geoff Withnell]

While I agree with you, I don't know who these people are; if their business practises are unethical, they are certainly not going to tell me about it.

Is it time that we (XMTS), draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. If all our retailers agree on a code of business practise, we could use it to either coerce or beat into submition all those traders that we find that are falling below the line.

I do not know how this would work in practice, but if a company like Great HighlandWear were to be told that potentially 10,000 people would NOT be buying from them, wouldn't they take notice?

Regards

Chas

I suspect that the folks who are going to do such practices would not be perturbed. And I believe that XMarks sponsors do practice good business ethics. The sponsors I know personally are good decent people, who are ethical because that is the way they are. AND because for someone with as much exposure to a group like this, it would be silly not to be. Honest and fair practice is a business necessity when any deviation would be immediately trumpeted to you target customers.

Geoff Withnell

[slohairt]

While I agree with you, I don't know who these people are; if their business practises are unethical, they are certainly not going to tell me about it.

Is it time that we (XMTS), draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. If all our retailers agree on a code of business practise, we could use it to either coerce or beat into submition all those traders that we find that are falling below the line.

I do not know how this would work in practice, but if a company like Great HighlandWear were to be told that potentially 10,000 people would NOT be buying from them, wouldn't they take notice?

Regards

Chas

You don't need them to tell you. If you see a sporran being sold for £10.00 brand new and the exact same sporran is sold elsewhere for £55.00 it should tell you that something illegitimate is going on. Likely on the part of the lower priced vendor.

As for any sort of action against them, they wouldn't care in the slightest, nor would they even grasp that any action is being done to them. They're a bit like telephone solicitors: If they receive one bite out of a hundred or even a thousand, it's considered a success! So, they'll continue to spam retailers, deceive consumers, and troll websites. It's their business model and they think it works.

[RockyR]

It's their business model and they think it works.

And it DOES work. They prey on unsuspecting and uneducated noobies in the 'highlandwear marketplace' who don't understand the difference and don't know WHAT questions to ask. They make decisions based on pictures that look IDENTICAL (maybe because they were stolen?) and descriptions that are all 'fluff' (don't give accurate description of product material, construction, etc) and are left with making a decision based on PRICE.

Now they DO also have a group of followers who ARE educated to their products and CHOOSE to purchase through them b/c they are the lowest price. THESE people KNOW what they're getting into and do so with eyes wide open, and that's COMPLETELY FINE. It's just a decision based on price, not other factors (location, quality, etc) which is a legitimate way to make a decision.

It's the former that I take unbrance with... when you must dupe people to make a sale, that should tell you something about your business ethics.

The ONLY way to conteract these types of practices (since 'unethical businesses' have existed for a long time and will continue to exist) is with Knowledge... knowledge of product and practises... knowledge given freely here on XMARKS. It's just up to the individual to COLLECT that knowledge BEFORE they make the decision where to purchase. Unfortunatley, more often than not, we read the following line from our new members:


"I wish I would have found this place BEFORE I bought..."

I think the REAL question is, how do we educate new people and reach them to educate them BEFORE they buy that $20 ebay sporran and expect an L & M or that $50 Lidl kilt and expect a handsewn 8 yarder? Matt Newsome and the STM do a GREAT job and Xmarks is a wealth of information. I try to make my website as 'informative' as possible about our products as well (not nearly as much as the former 2 though)...

It also comes down to another simple 'business model' / idiom from the 1500's: A fool and his money are soon parted. If they can prey on unsuspecting people and make easy money, why not? That's 'their niche'. Is it right? That's a matter of opinion. Is it A NICHE? Yes.

[The Guy in the Kilt at UC]

Yes, I've noticed that they plagiarize other sites almost entirely. That was the tipping point that caused me to not buy from them. After all the bad reviews from other X'ers, I was still tempted by their low, low prices. But the site copying really does it.

Advice: save your pennies. get a quality product from a quality vendor.

[Ozark Ridge Rider]

The advice I picked up from X-marks probably saved me a bundle and I am SURE it saved a lot of hassles. Otherwise I would have ordered from one of these places. Now, I think I'm a bit more discriminating.

[sathor]

ugh. The guy who wanted a free jacket....scum.

Hey, I'd love a free jacket too, but I'd wear the blasted thing (or at least it would hang in my closet) not destroy the thing. ugh.

[sathor]

I sell hot sauce online, and I actually sell some for well under the MSRP. Is it illegitimate? Nope, I buy from a wholesaler, and I made a big order to put me in a better class to get a better price. My wholesaler doesn't do retail. My 'backup' wholesaler does, sometimes their resale prices are better than mine, usually not. Some other resellers actually are even higher still. My best seller is $6.75 by my site. Other prices I see it online in the range of 7.95~10 bottle, up to about 33% more than I do.

Comparing the most expensive place to buy and from me, if you buy from the Manufacturer, you pay more, and that money goes to them, and where they get their stuff from. Buy from me, and I get a cut, the whole-seller gets a cut, and the manufacturer gets a cut.

But the manufacturer has only their brand, which are all adult named. If a person wanted a nice dessert sauce and my best seller (it has the f word in it's name) they would have to go to a reseller vs the manufacturer.

Look at Rocky, I suspect he gets his tartan material from a few different sources. He might be getting his sporrans from a few different places. If I ordered from the same place he gets his tartan (ignoring that it doesn't come as a kilt, for sake of discussion) then I might well be fine and dandy, but I would still need to go find a sporran, and maybe a belt, and so on. Still, another site might spring up that specializes in a certain make of sporran. They might just get the quantity to stomp Rocky in the ground for sporrans. You still need the other things, but that price might be legitimate. Perhaps the lower seller got a cache of them from some going out of biz sale, or similar.

Last comment, before I say anything else dumb, but...

Have you ever had the Burger they show in the menu? In food photography, a common practice is to get a dozen (or at least a few) of the item, and they pick out the 2 best. The second best gets put under the lights for the lighting test and so forth, and the best is in the spotlight for a second, where it is eaten. Stolen pics are deceitful, (and stupid when watermarked) though one might argue the plastic sandwiches in the displays at restaurants are as well. If they are cloning the item, how will you know from the pic the real quality of the item at times? I am missing number of pics on my site. I could probably just 'take' them from my whole-seller or the manufacturers. I refuse to. I'd rather have a crappy pic on my site than a pro one that someone else took. (my $1000+ camera equipment isn't geared towards product shots, go fig.) Its all morality. And its touchy. What if the website was deluded by a third party into thinking that they were truly getting the same item. What if they were setting up shop, got the email mentioned earlier, and in talking with that group, was told the items were really the same? What if their whole-seller overseas gave them those pics to use, and told them other sites with the pics had gotten them from them as well? Do we dare even consider that these people are actually good people with bad distributors, who think that the angry emails from the © owners of the pics are just angry competitors who don't like someone selling the same thing for huge amounts less? Sure, it's not likely, but I know people that are that stupid. My mom just got a banner for her restaurant being open 10 years. She was quoted locally @ over $300, and she found it online for $45. I am not sure which she ordered from (knowing her, the $45 place) I pointed out to her that the cheap one might be a lower quality plastic that might melt over her grill, might have the ink smear if it gets wet, etc, but in the end $$$ is all she ever really sees....