Confusion about Lord Lyon and the Registry of Tartans

**Rex_Tremende** · 13th November 09, 05:03 PM

I know it's not the case, but I was having a conversation today with someone who was quite insistent that the queen's blessing must be granted for a tartan to be registered and it is done through Lord Lyon to be "official."

I don't need to be told it's not true. I got that.

What I'm curious to know is if anyone can produce any documentation or web sites that would lead someone to believe this.

For instance...

Looking at the web site of the Court of the Lord Lyon, I think it could be confusing that they have several references to tartans, and they state:

Searching the Public Register [of Tartans]

The Public Register is open to personal inspection in the Court of the Lord Lyon, HM New Register House, Edinburgh, EH1 3YT.

A search fee is charged for each entry inspected.

The office is open to the public from Monday to Friday between 10am and 12.30 pm and between 2 pm and 4 pm.

Why would they charge a fee? Isn't the registry of tartans open for all to see?

Regards,
Rex.

**ccga3359** · 13th November 09, 05:24 PM

I highly doubt that HM has any say in whether a tartan be allowed to receive registration. Unless of course it is for her personal use.

**HeathBar** · 13th November 09, 06:06 PM

Aren't they referring to the register of arms?

**Rex_Tremende** · 13th November 09, 06:30 PM

Well, he understood that Lord Lyon did that. We were discussing the design of a personal tartan, which he desired to restrict the production of without permission. He claimed the process by which one did this was to go through Lord Lyon, and that's what he had learned from the internet. I'm trying to locate examples of where this might have been stated to be the case, because I haven't come up with any to substantiate such a claim. I can find reason for someone to be confused about it, though, and to confuse one with the other. For instance, the name of this sub-forum is "Tartans and Heraldry." They do seem like related topics and one might draw conclusions. But misinformation is another matter. I'm trying to locate possible sources of it.

Regards,
Rex.

**O'Callaghan** · 13th November 09, 08:30 PM

I think the new Scottish Register of Tartans is an agency of the Scottish government. OTOH, it has taken on all the tartans previously registered by the STA and by the 'World Register' of Tartans, along with their policies that allow anyone in the world to register a tartan for any group anywhere as long as they have some woven and submit a sample. Their records do note if a tartan is restricted, but only in the same place as any other notes, and as we all know, they have Sweet Fanny Adams to do with the Lord Lyon.

Where anyone would get ideas to the contrary I don't really know, except of the 'heard it from a bloke in a pub' variety.

**ThistleDown** · 13th November 09, 08:46 PM

I think you will find that all tartans in Scotland are in the government's Tartans Registry, no matter which of several collections they were registered in previously, and that to register a tartan today what one must do is make application to the Registry and show that there is sufficient difference between the one you wish to register and all others registered. The idea is that eventually all tartans in the world wishing to call themselves "Scottish" will be registered in Scotland.

My understanding is that Lord Lyon, on the other hand and representing HG, registers tartans peculiar to armigers and at the specific request of those armigers. So Angus MacAngus of Angusdale may request that certain variations on the MacAngus of Angusdale tartan be registered as acceptable to him and, by exclusion, others not. As per Argyll.

Rex (too)

**Sketraw** · 13th November 09, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by ThistleDown

My understanding is that Lord Lyon, on the other hand and representing HG, registers tartans peculiar to armigers and at the specific request of those armigers. So Angus MacAngus of Angusdale may request that certain variations on the MacAngus of Angusdale tartan be registered as acceptable to him and, by exclusion, others not. As per Argyll.

Rex (too)

Rex, I think you will find that the only tartans recorded at Lyon Court are those of the Chiefs of Clans. perhaps some peers, and others for other reasons but for sure those of the Clan Chiefs.

**ThistleDown** · 13th November 09, 09:28 PM

Yes, you may well be right, Sketraw. The ones I know to be registered with Lyon are "clan" tartans registered by chiefs, in the main to stop unregistered tartans from claiming "clan" status. Hmmm, come to think of it, I do know two armigers (admitedly of 19C record) with tartans in Lyon registry.

The fact that Lyon has/does register tartans at all goes to the question though, and I suspect it is Lyon's own willingness to register some tartans that created the idea in this chap's mind that he could protect his tartan by lodging it somehow with Lyon Court. He can be assured that that will not protect him; look at the plethora of coats of arms sold as though they belong to the "name" and not the individual. Admittedly outwith Scotland, but I suspect that's where the man is.

Rex (too)

**Chas** · 14th November 09, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Rex_Tremende

Well, he understood that Lord Lyon did that. We were discussing the design of a personal tartan, which he desired to restrict the production of without permission. He claimed the process by which one did this was to go through Lord Lyon, and that's what he had learned from the internet. I'm trying to locate examples of where this might have been stated to be the case, because I haven't come up with any to substantiate such a claim. I can find reason for someone to be confused about it, though, and to confuse one with the other. For instance, the name of this sub-forum is "Tartans and Heraldry." They do seem like related topics and one might draw conclusions. But misinformation is another matter. I'm trying to locate possible sources of it.

Regards,
Rex.

I have long advocated that this sub-forum should be split into two separate forums. There might be some heraldry attached to a particular tartan and there might be a tartan associated with a particular coat of arms, but it is all 'if, but and maybe'.

We might as well have kilt pins and fly plaids in one forum. In the end it would be realised that a kilt pin is not a brooch and a fly plaid is not a kilt and like tartans and heraldry, have nothing in common.

Regards

Chas

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 14th November 09, 06:17 AM

At one time there was a direct statement on the Lyon Court home page (under their "clans & tartans" subheading) that while the Lyon Court would record a chief's tartan if requested, that the Lord Lyon had no direct authority over tartan and it referred tartan enquiries to the Scottish Tartans Authority.

However, I just looked and I no longer see that statement. I think the entire "tartan" section of their web site is under review now that the National Register has been established.

If it will help, there is an excerpt from the book District Tartans by Teall & Smith, on the Scottish Tartans Authority web site, that deals with the Lord Lyon and tartans.
http://www.tartansauthority.com/web/...y/LordLyon.asp

I've also dealt with the subject in one of my Scottish Banner articles, archived here:
http://albanach.org/tartans_heraldry.htm