Wha Widna Fecht For Charlie ? That is the question !

[davidlpope]

I think this thread is heading for trouble...

Remember this is a KILT forum
Posts and/or threads containing topics not related to kilts or topics deemed questionable by the forum staff may be deleted, without cause. This includes but is not limited to threads concerning kilt accessories used as weapons or used to carry weapons, what is worn under the kilt, the "is a kilt a skirt?" issue, the gender of those wearing kilts, National pride issues, etc...

Cordially,

David

[Lachlan09]

I think good old Scottish level-headed debate (in raised voices) is called for

[Arlen]

I think good old Scottish level-headed debate (in raised voices) is called for

I disagree. We've had this come up on the forum before and there is a strong enough difference of opinion between so many of the folk on here that arguments frequently start. (And we have some real history scholars on here.)

I'd say this is a political subject even with it's historical significance and it's not something to stir up.

[ThistleDown]

I'd say this is a political subject even with it's historical significance and it's not something to stir up.

I agree. All that we will learn from continuing this discussion is that we should have known better and should have done more thorough research in other threads before contributing our oh-so-personal and theoretical opinions to this one.

[Phil]

I'd say this is a political subject even with it's historical significance and it's not something to stir up.

I would have to disagree with you here, Arlen, insofar as the politics of Jacobitism have long since disappeared even though the religious divisions they engendered persist to this day. What I would agree with, however, is the pointlessness of such "what if.." discussions. My own view is that the OP has a romanticised view of BPC and his fruitless campaign when in fact it was probably nothing more than a cynical manipulation of gullible clansmen, many of whom were led (from behind of course) to their inevitable slaughter. And, of course, BPC played no part in the aftermath when genocide was carried out throughout the Highlands as a direct consequence of his uprising, leading eventually to the extinction of the clanship system as it had existed before his ill-fated adventure.

[Deil the Yin]

Very poignant, Phil. Your comment made me think about the significance of the '45 with regard to Gaelic Highland culture and the clan system. I would propose that had BPC been successful at regaining the throne, given he could then overcome the religious strife that followed etc and ruled relatively peacefully, Gaelic culture would have faded into virtual oblivion with the coming of the modern era.

That is to say that without the direct threat of extinction and cultural oppression from the Honovarians, there would not have been the burning desire to hold on to the past culture of Highland Scotland - which one might say was mostly of necessity for living in a harsh environment. And due to the fact that Gaelic culture was the minority in Scotland, it could easily be said that the phenomena of the "tartan army" of today would not have come about, and thus our cherished forum, too, would not be!

On a side note: I think a very similar thing could be said about Irish (language) and Irish culture- had the Brits not been forcing the country, in many places quite violently, the urge to preserve a Gaelic Ireland may well have been overcome by the desire to progress into a new century and modern times etc...

[Lachlan09]

Before I bow out of this thread, I am a polar opposite of romanticist over BPC. I hate the whole soppy thing except for its usefulness for tourism.

However, the effect the whole episode had on following Scottish generations fis real enough. So to know where it all came from is enough.

However, today Scotland is a different time and place and two and a half centuries of world history have flowed under the bridge since then, a world Scotland is part of. Jacobitism is a past little blip on the world historical map.

My ancestor Niel Gow was impressed into the Jacobite army in 1745, but he skipped asap - smart guy !

The Jacobites were a bunch of losers and Scotland soon hitched its future to the English star and helped create one of the most successful empires in history. That's something to be proud of. God Save The Queen.