Wha Widna Fecht For Charlie ? That is the question !

[Deil the Yin]

Very poignant, Phil. Your comment made me think about the significance of the '45 with regard to Gaelic Highland culture and the clan system. I would propose that had BPC been successful at regaining the throne, given he could then overcome the religious strife that followed etc and ruled relatively peacefully, Gaelic culture would have faded into virtual oblivion with the coming of the modern era.

That is to say that without the direct threat of extinction and cultural oppression from the Honovarians, there would not have been the burning desire to hold on to the past culture of Highland Scotland - which one might say was mostly of necessity for living in a harsh environment. And due to the fact that Gaelic culture was the minority in Scotland, it could easily be said that the phenomena of the "tartan army" of today would not have come about, and thus our cherished forum, too, would not be!

On a side note: I think a very similar thing could be said about Irish (language) and Irish culture- had the Brits not been forcing the country, in many places quite violently, the urge to preserve a Gaelic Ireland may well have been overcome by the desire to progress into a new century and modern times etc...

[WClarkB]

Indeed, the "what if" presupposes one's theory of history:
1) History is accidental, hinging itself of random events, personalities etc
2) History has a great plan which makes broad changes inevitable
3) History is cyclical; past is prologue
4) History is dictated from Hagurri the Trasbidite of Khuri of the Blembites

[Woodsheal]

This ought to stir the pot a bit! I believe that much of the Jacobite support by many clans was not so much that they were enamoured of the Stewarts, but that the various Risings (going back to the Civil Wars of the 1640's) afforded opportunity to strike at old rivals in the Highlands. The chance to hammer back at the Campbells and other powerful pro-Government clans was a big motivation for many chiefs. The Campbells especially were consummate political players (and one has to admire their savvy!). They would by-and-large cozy up to the ruling regime, then use those relationships to advance their power in the Highlands, obviously at the expense of neighboring clans. Anti-Campbell sentiments spurred on many a so-called "Jacobite."

Local concerns - and old animosities - were bigger factors for most clanfolk than whoever occupied the distant throne in London....

[macwilkin]

This ought to stir the pot a bit! I believe that much of the Jacobite support by many clans was not so much that they were enamoured of the Stewarts, but that the various Risings (going back to the Civil Wars of the 1640's) afforded opportunity to strike at old rivals in the Highlands. The chance to hammer back at the Campbells and other powerful pro-Government clans was a big motivation for many chiefs. The Campbells especially were consummate political players (and one has to admire their savvy!). They would by-and-large cozy up to the ruling regime, then use those relationships to advance their power in the Highlands, obviously at the expense of neighboring clans. Anti-Campbell sentiments spurred on many a so-called "Jacobite."

Local concerns - and old animosities - were bigger factors for most clanfolk than whoever occupied the distant throne in London....

I think Brian's reasoning is spot-on here; one other factor that others have touched on in earlier posts is religion; while conventional wisdom makes the Jacobites out as RC's, and the government supporters as Presbyterians, it should be noted that a number of Jacobites were Episcopalians, who were discriminated against by the established church, the Church of Scotland, which had been established as the state church under William of Orange.

In fact, at least one historian has suggested that BPC would have done better to have converted to Episcopalianism before he tried to rally the clans, as a pisskie would have been easier for some Calvinists to stomach than an RC. That, however, is just a theory, and I'm not so sure I endorse it.

Regards,

Todd

[Lachlan09]

Before I bow out of this thread, I am a polar opposite of romanticist over BPC. I hate the whole soppy thing except for its usefulness for tourism.

However, the effect the whole episode had on following Scottish generations fis real enough. So to know where it all came from is enough.

However, today Scotland is a different time and place and two and a half centuries of world history have flowed under the bridge since then, a world Scotland is part of. Jacobitism is a past little blip on the world historical map.

My ancestor Niel Gow was impressed into the Jacobite army in 1745, but he skipped asap - smart guy !

The Jacobites were a bunch of losers and Scotland soon hitched its future to the English star and helped create one of the most successful empires in history. That's something to be proud of. God Save The Queen.

[Bigkahuna]

I must state that I have some very personal feelings re: Laura Croft, but I will not go into that at this time.

[Phil]

The BBC are running a debate on this at the moment - http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/histor...tes/jacobites/ - as part of their History of Scotland series if anyone wants to contribute.

[Panache]

...The Jacobites were a bunch of losers and Scotland soon hitched its future to the English star and helped create one of the most successful empires in history. That's something to be proud of. God Save The Queen.

It has been decided by the Forum Moderators that the Original Poster has far crossed the line about our rules concerning politics at this point and because of this this thread will be closed.

Sincerely

Jamie and The Forum Moderators