material changes a tartan?

[kev_1270]

I found this a little odd that the material of a tartan completely changes the tartan - should that happen?

For Example:
Thomson or Thompson Camel Modern


One is 13oz. wool and the other PV. I found this change is worse...

Thomson or Thompson Grey Modern


Unless they imported the wrong image... the second one would be called grey because???

[Galician]

Just off the top of my head, I'd suggest that different materials absorb dyes differently.

In my order, a person at a local meeting asked one of the brothers if he and another brother were from the same order, because their habits looked to be different colors. He was a bit elderly and liked to be brief. His answer was, "Same community, different bolts."

[Paul Henry]

Different weavers have different colour balances and thread colours ( there isn't an absolute colour referencing system that is universal), different weights of fabric will change the size of pattern, different websites have different colour balances as well, and the basic photography could alter as well, lots of variations....
The thread count should remain the same each time, but as often said, if you are in any doubt about a tartan, it really is worthwhile to get a sample

[ForresterModern]

Could not agree more with the "get a swatch" suggestion. I loved the colors of the MacDonald of Glencoe modern shown on several websites, but because it was only woven as a standard tartan by Dalgleish I was a bit leary to trust the photo, as I had some custom tartan woven by Dalgleish in a different clan that came out darker and more color "saturated" than I had expected from photos of it. So I ordered a swatch from Scotweb, and indeed the swatch I got was a lot darker and more saturated than what all the online photos showed. So I opted instead for the only other standard stock woven version of that MAcD Glencoe available, a muted House of Edgar version, which matched much better with the color palette (thanks Rex) I was expecting, even though it too was still a wee bit darker than expected.

If you just want a specific tartan and are not too hung up on exactly how the colors appear, you could probably get away without a swatch. If you have any concerns about how the tartan is going to appear, in daylight, fluorescent lighting, etc... GET A SWATCH (of tartan, not one of those plastic Swiss watches).

[kev_1270]

That makes some sense with that first example... but when I saw the GREY pattern with heavy green - I was like, HUH?

I understand that dye may hold different on some materials or the weight of fabric, and even a bit different due to the variations of the color. However some of the ones I looked at were completely different color (like the grey/green example).

[The Wizard of BC]

What you are seeing here is the result of a number of factors.

This first is that you are comparing totally different Tartans.

The Scottish Tartans Authority lists 6 different Tartans under the name "Thompson".

These are:
Name of Tartan: Thomson (Clan)
Alternative name: Thompson Hunting, Thomson Dress
ITI number: 231 Date: 1965
Category: Name
Designer / Source: Bain/Bottomley
Copyright:

Slog: BKB:BTG
Colour Sequence: BKBGTBTGBK
Thread Count: A6K24A24LG12T56A8T56LG12A24K24
Notes:
This is now also MacTavish Hunting. Designed by John Bain & Alfred Bottomley of MacArthurs of Hamilton (now at Biggar [2002]). Alfred was owner/Managing Director of MacArthurs and John was a director and one of the leading designers in Scotland. The design work on this and the Thomson Htg was for newspaper magnate, Lord Thomson of Fleet - via Kinloch Anderson of Edinburgh. Recorded in Lord Lyon Book 23 on 7th December 1971. Sample in STA Johnston Collection. Now worn by many Thomsons regardless of spelling. John Bain (10th October 2002) remembers Lord Thomson visiting the mill in 1965 to discuss the designs. John Bain does not know where the 'hunting' suffix came from: when designed, this tartan was simply the 'Thomson' Since this is the same sett as the original MacTavish of 1906, it's not known what design work could have been involved in its production or indeed in any of the Thompson tartans. They seem to comprise a few colour changes and nothing else. Sindex calls this Lord Thomson: Hunting!!!! All very confusing! Green lightened to show sett.


Name of Tartan: Thompson (J.C.'s Fancy)
Alternative name:
ITI number: 286 Date: pre 2002
Category: American Personal
Designer / Source: Thompson, J C.
Copyright:

Slog: BTB:KBT
Colour Sequence: RTBBKBKBBT
Thread Count: R12LT48B12AA24K24AA6K24AA24B12LT48
Notes:

Same as 3595 (MacTavish). J.C.Thompson of Arlington, Virginia thought that the customary brown hunting colours did not properly reflect the derivation from MacTavish so "J.C.'s Fancy" was designed with red stripe on brown,and blue border on brown. also known as MacTavish, hunting. Tartan Society notes say it was for 'his own use' He commissioned James Scarlett MBE to weave one kilt length for him who commented in September 2003 "The shade of brown that I used for Thompson's Fancy was matched to what I got when I tried to dye scarlet with Ladies Bedstraw. I now know I overheated it, but that is what happened. It was not, of course, a fancy tartan, but one that Thompson fancied." . .

Name of Tartan: Thomson Camel
Alternative name:
ITI number: 2421 Date: circa 1960
Category: Fashion
Designer / Source: Thompson, J.C.
Copyright:

Slog:
Colour Sequence: RTKWKWKWKT
Thread Count: XR8LT60K12W26K26W6K26W26K12LT60
Notes:
As with Thomson Camel #5129, this is thought to have been designed about 40 years ago and has often been linked to an American called J.C.Thompson. The reason for that is obvious when 'Thomson's Fancy' is viewed - it just has azure in place of the white shown here. Whilst this Thomson Camel here has the red stripe in the same position as Burberry, the white stripes are much further apart and have a white line between them. Close up, there is no problem in distinguishing between this and the genuine Burberry. Lochcarron substitutes blue for the two narrow black lines. Lochcarron swatch. Another opinion suggests that this was designed by Laird Portch. The late Scotty was one of north America's leading experts on tartan and was a prolific author, his most popular book being 'So you're going to wear the kilt?" He also co-authored 'Scotland's Forged Tartans' with the father of modern tartan research, the late D C Stewart.

Name of Tartan: Thompson (Personal)
Alternative name:
ITI number: 2484 Date: 1998
Category: American Personal
Designer / Source: Celtic Connections
Copyright:

Slog:
Colour Sequence: WRWRBKBRWR
Thread Count: W6R24W24R12A56K8A56R12W24R24
Notes:
This is the private family tartan for a Dennis C. Thompson in the USA. No connection with the famous D C Thomson (with no 'P') publishers of Dundee. Count from Lochcarron woven sample.

Name of Tartan: Thomson Dress (Blue)
Alternative name:
ITI number: 5130 Date: 1965
Category: Clan/Family
Designer / Source: Bain/Bottomley
Copyright:

Slog: RBK:YKW
Colour Sequence: RBKWKYKWKB
Thread Count: R6AB60K12W24K24Y6K24W24K12AB60
Notes:
Designed by John Bain & Alfred Bottomley of MacArthurs of Hamilton (now at Biggar [2002]). Alfred was owner/Managing Director of MacArthurs and John was a director and one of the leading designers in Scotland. The design work on this and the Thomson Htg was for Lord Thomson of Fleet - via Kinloch Anderson of Edinburgh. It was registered with Lord Lyon (PRA 49/6 15th October 1965). Now worn by many Thomsons regardless of spelling. John Bain (10th October 2002) remembers Lord Thomson visiting the mill to discuss the designs. Woven by House of Edgar & Strathmore Woollen Co.

Name of Tartan: Thomson Red
Alternative name:
ITI number: 6155 Date: pre 2002
Category: Name
Designer / Source: Lochcarron of Scotland
Copyright:

Slog: ..AKAKRA..
Colour Sequence: AKAKRARKAK
Thread Count: A6K24A24K12R56A8R56K12A24K24
Notes:
Yet another Thomson variation - this one woven by Lochcarron.

Notice that all are relatively new. The oldest is only dated 1960.

Each of these Tartans are distinct and have a different thread count. So even if the colors of the yarns were all the same they will still look different.

And we are not even talking about the difference between a Dress and/or Hunting version of a Tartan.
In general a Dress Tartan is one where one of the background colors is replaced with white to create a lighter, more feminine Tartan for ladies and dancers. The best example of this is the difference between Stewart Royal and Stewart Dress. These are basically the same thread counts but in the dress version the red is replaced with white.

The Next thing you have to take into consideration is that Weaving Companies are in the business to sell fabric. Anything they can do to sell more fabric is good for them. So some companies have begun to alter the colors of the yarns in the Tartan to create a different effect. Some call these "variations" or "versions".

In the STA listings above you note that the name Lochcarron comes up more than once. This is one of the largest and most respected names in the Tartan weaving world. Many of the Tartans they weave are available in different "versions" such as "modern", "ancient", and "weathered". These varieties are all the same thread count so are the same Tartan but appear totally different due to the color change of the yarn.
For example a Tartan woven in their modern version may look green. When woven in their ancient version it may look blue. And when woven in their weathered version may look brown. But these are all the same Tartan with the same thread count.

Now, if you consider the colors of yarns from different companies, and even the dye lots themselves you can imagine that there can be quite a difference in the look of the exact same Tartan.

A piece of Tartan from Lochcarron may look totally different than the same Tartan woven by D.C. Dalgliesh or Marton Mills.

And the difference in dye lots is why kiltmakers urge their customers to order their Kilt and Fly plaid at the same time because even six months later a different dye lot my result in a different looking piece of fabric.


OK, long winded explanation. It all boils down to these points.
1. Make sure you are talking about the same Tartan. Each name may have multiple Tartans with different thread counts.
2. Make sure you are talking about the same version or variety. If you see the terms modern, ancient, weathered, dress, hunting, or anything else like a color tacked onto the name you may be talking about a different looking Tartan.
3. Make sure you are talking about the same weaving company and the same dye lot.

[Pleater]

Perhaps if there were more women in printing and dyeing it might be a more exact science, but they are both - in my experience - considered 'men's work' here in England and possibly elsewhere in the world. Men are far more prone to have problems differentiating colours.

The inability to differentiate grey and green or brown is a classic one - but the alteration in the thread count and colour order is perhaps due to the mill not having the correct amounts of the colours required to weave the tartan, so maybe they put on a warp and wove with what they had, so as the keep the mill rolling, and named it what was wanted so as to fulfill the orders.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[fluter]

That makes some sense with that first example... but when I saw the GREY pattern with heavy green - I was like, HUH?

Let us not forget: you are looking at a computer screen, not at fabric. So, you've been given good advice: get some fabric to inspect.

The effect you observed on your computer screen may even have to do with the way(s) the samples were scanned for the Web site, and the qualities of the different yarns in some particular kind of light. We don't know, and we can't know. I have certainly seen black fabric that looks green in certain situations (old jackets, for instance).

Variations like this come with the tartan territory! For instance would you say these samples were the same sett? (Click to enlarge.)




In tartan terms, they are the same. Here we have not a composite but a single photo, under "color corrected" lighting, but there may still be variations according to fabric composition (wool, polyester/wool, polyester/rayon, and polyester/unknown). You may take the photographer's word that the effect is similar to visual inspection; but if I were you, I'd order swatches before choosing one of them.

[kev_1270]

Hey they all got the white right

My examples didn't post great, but there were 2 examples of 2 separate Tartans that came from the same name from ScotWeb:
Thomson Grey Modern http://www.scotweb.co.uk/sr_swhdr_ta...material/51385

and

Thomson Camel Modern http://www.scotweb.co.uk/sr_swhdr_ta...material/51383

They do not appear to list the STA number next to the tartan's so it's hard to tell from the site if it is something totally different or a coloration issue. I'll just have to use the advise from above and get swatches. The issue is I was trying to find swatches for a great Kilt in PV. Some of the tartans she named as available for the kilt - were not shown on her site. So, I was trying to be proactive and research the tartan name in a PV fabric. I will check the correct STA numbers - then ask for the swatches in the PV and see the difference.

Thank to all for the info.

[Smayniac]

The effect you observed on your computer screen may even have to do with the way(s) the samples were scanned for the Web site, and the qualities of the different yarns in some particular kind of light. We don't know, and we can't know. I have certainly seen black fabric that looks green in certain situations (old jackets, for instance).

Scooby's mom used to make formal wear for an opera company. She discovered that in the early twentieth century, with the introduction of incandescent light, many makers went to midnight blue for formal jackets because it still appeared black under artificial lighting conditions.

Bob