Sept versus Clan

[beloitpiper]

As far as I am aware, Fitz was also adopted by the English to describe a denotation for the bastard (illegitimate) son of someone in high station...

i.e. Kings, Princes...

oh hang on, better back that up...



Ah, thats cleared that up then.

Though it has been used in that context, the "bastard" connotation is not the original meaning of "Fitz". The prefix "Fitz" is Anglo-Norman and originally means "Son of". Its spread throughout Ireland occurred during the Norman invasion of the 12th century.

[###KILTEDKIWI###]

Though it has been used in that context, the "bastard" connotation is not the original meaning of "Fitz". The prefix "Fitz" is Anglo-Norman and originally means "Son of". Its spread throughout Ireland occurred during the Norman invasion of the 12th century.

Yip, wasnt disputing that.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Though it has been used in that context, the "bastard" connotation is not the original meaning of "Fitz". The prefix "Fitz" is Anglo-Norman and originally means "Son of". Its spread throughout Ireland occurred during the Norman invasion of the 12th century.

There wasn't a Norman invasion. They came at the request of Dermot McMurrough Kavanagh, the King of Leinster, who hired them to aid in his war to secure the High Kingship of Ireland. As part of the deal, McMurrough Kavanagh gave Richard de Clair (Strongbow), the leader of the Anglo-Normans, the hand of his daughter in marriage, and settled extensive lands on Strongbow and his knights. Within a generation these Hibernio-Normans were "more Irish than the Irish", speaking Gaelic and marrying in to all of the ancient Irish noble houses. They came as allies of a Irish king, adopted Irish ways, and in a generation became Irish.

[beloitpiper]

There wasn't a Norman invasion. They came at the request of Dermot McMurrough Kavanagh, the King of Leinster, who hired them to aid in his war to secure the High Kingship of Ireland. As part of the deal, McMurrough Kavanagh gave Richard de Clair (Strongbow), the leader of the Anglo-Normans, the hand of his daughter in marriage, and settled extensive lands on Strongbow and his knights. Within a generation these Hibernio-Normans were "more Irish than the Irish", speaking Gaelic and marrying in to all of the ancient Irish noble houses. They came as allies of a Irish king, adopted Irish ways, and in a generation became Irish.

Right. But Kavanagh only invited them over to get back at Rory O'Connor who had defeated him after Muirchertach MacLochlainn died in 1166. Kavanagh lost his kingdom and to get it back he sacrificed most of Ireland to appease Henry II and the Pope. So yes, eventually they became the oft-quoted "More Irish than the Irish themselves," but it started out as a land-grab.

[Bugbear]

Oh no... Do I need to start looking through books on Irish history now?

[Morris at Heathfield]

But my real question is why Kilpatrick is considered a sept of Colquhoun instead of something else. Since the name Colquhoun was first used by a Kilpatrick (and according to most purists, you can't just randomly change your name to identify with the clan you like; it must be given to you by your father), why would the clan not be called Clan Kilpatrick?

As a general rule, Scottish clans take their name from the surname of the chief. If the chief's surname is Colquhoun, the clan is Clan Colquhoun.

And fixed, inherited surnames may be the tradition, but they're a relatively recent tradition, compared to the clans themselves. In Scotland I believe they only adopted fixed surnames around the 1500s. In Iceland and Mongolia they still haven't adopted fixed surnames. Instead, they use real patronymics. In China and Rome, on the other hand, they had fixed family names well before the rest of the world.