Irish Kilts

[denmcdough]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Hmm, I just had a thought about the comment that OC Richard made, that Irish history has gone amiss. And, it brings me to my current reading, The War For Ireland 1913 - 1923. In reading this book, by 1916, you get a feel that there were many factions in Irish society, and they all wanted different outcomes, because the 'real' Irish identity, by then, was waning rapidly! They were split between Treaty vs. Anti-Treaty...partition of the north and south.

Maybe it's true, the Irish have been looking for an identity because theirs was pretty much decimated. For 800 years, Irish tradition and history was relegated to dirt. The Penal Laws saw to that...it was the specific intent of the English to do away with ANYTHING Irish. Sound familiar? The same was done in Scotland.

So, my point is, if you see Irish bands, or Irish individuals, or Irish diaspora wearing Scottish attire, maybe they ARE using this as a way to identify with the past, even if it's not their true national garment. Does that make sense? OK, I'm rambling on, but I think it's cool that so many Irish-Americans, these days, have adopted the Scottish dress as if it were their own. Is that a bad thing? I think not.

Recently, I attended an Irish festival near Baltimore, MD. I was blown away by how many kilts I saw. That was the determinate that made me get into the kilt thing. I'm so glad!!!!

[The Thing]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Hmm, I just had a thought about the comment that OC Richard made, that Irish history has gone amiss. And, it brings me to my current reading, The War For Ireland 1913 - 1923. In reading this book, by 1916, you get a feel that there were many factions in Irish society, and they all wanted different outcomes, because the 'real' Irish identity, by then, was waning rapidly! They were split between Treaty vs. Anti-Treaty...partition of the north and south.

Maybe it's true, the Irish have been looking for an identity because theirs was pretty much decimated. For 800 years, Irish tradition and history was relegated to dirt. The Penal Laws saw to that...it was the specific intent of the English to do away with ANYTHING Irish. Sound familiar? The same was done in Scotland.

So, my point is, if you see Irish bands, or Irish individuals, or Irish diaspora wearing Scottish attire, maybe they ARE using this as a way to identify with the past, even if it's not their true national garment. Does that make sense? OK, I'm rambling on, but I think it's cool that so many Irish-Americans, these days, have adopted the Scottish dress as if it were their own. Is that a bad thing? I think not.

Recently, I attended an Irish festival near Baltimore, MD. I was blown away by how many kilts I saw. That was the determinate that made me get into the kilt thing. I'm so glad!!!!

Well said,

Having lived in Ireland, been in the Military and a love of it's history and heritage I would agree with your above post.

[beloitpiper]

Ironically enough, the union pipe was renamed the uilleann pipe by a charlatan named Gratton Flood circa 1910. It's history is as much English and Scottish as Irish.

[citation needed]

I give up, how are the Irish pipes actaully Scottish and English?

this whole thread is starting to sound a lot like "You know, haggis and kilts were actually an English invention!"

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

[citation needed]

I give up, how are the Irish pipes actaully Scottish and English?

this whole thread is starting to sound a lot like "You know, haggis and kilts were actually an English invention!"

I think he's referring to:

The Story of the Bagpipe by W.H. Grattan Flood, pub. by Chas. Scribner, NY and London, 1911.

Hardly a charlatan, Flood was one of the major forces in Irish music in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and received a Papal knighthood for his contribution to Irish liturgical music. A college professor, Flood not only composed music, but published extensively on the subject of Irish music as well.

[PGH]

I think he's referring to: The Story of the Bagpipe by W.H. Grattan Flood, pub. by Chas. Scribner, NY and London, 1911. Hardly a charlatan, Flood was one of the major forces in Irish music in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and received a Papal knighthood for his contribution to Irish liturgical music. A college professor, Flood not only composed music, but published extensively on the subject of Irish music as well.

Right, and the book was debunked by Irish scholars within a year of its publication.

Here's an interesting web site with tons of pics of bagpipes from all over Europe. Note the section on images from Flood's book carries a note to the effect that the pictures from the book are great but the text is untrustworthy.

http://www.prydein.com/pipes/

Here's a wicki with more detail on the English, Irish and Scottish roots of the pastoral pipe, aka uillean pipe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastoral_pipes

Here's a wicki about the uillean pipe that explains how Flood came up with the name. Note that they don't flat out say it but if you read between the lines Flood's explanation is pure fantasy. The author also acknowledges that this form of pipe was developed through interaction between England, Ireland and Scotland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uilleann_pipes

[Jock Scot]

[citation needed] I give up, how are the Irish pipes actaully Scottish and English? this whole thread is starting to sound a lot like "You know, haggis and kilts were actually an English invention!"

Er well um, actually, there was an idea, how true I don't know, being floated just recently in the press and here, that the haggis IS an English invention! Have a nice day.

[OC Richard]

Ironically enough, the union pipe was renamed the uilleann pipe by a charlatan named Gratton Flood circa 1910. It's history is as much English and Scottish as Irish.

Oh for sure! It seems that the so-called "uilleann pipes" originally evolved in Britain, perhaps in centres of musical instrument manufacturing such as London and Edinburgh.

There's no doubt at all that big pipes/warpipes have a much earlier pedigree in Ireland than the uilleann pipes.

But sadly the ancient Irish warpipes went extinct and no actual instruments survive, so we really don't know exactly what they looked like or where their place was, techincally, in the family of Western European bagpipes. Sean Folsom, who knows more about bagpipe typology than just about anybody, has called the Irish warpipes the "lost cousin of the Grand Cornemuse" (the enormous bagpipe of Central France). Tantalising hints of the Irish warpipes' musical capabilites exist in a few old marches which survive in the uilleann repertoire: most go a note above the octave of the tonic, suggesting that the Irish warpipes were able to "pinch" into the 2nd octave like the extinct Scottish Lowland pipes and many Western European pipes such as Central French pipes and Spanish pipes. Too bad that the Irish revivalists chose the Scottish Highland pipes for their revival of the Irish warpipe rather than a somewhat closer relative such as the Low Countries bagpipe.

In any case the uilleann pipes have the longest unbroken tradition and have been, along with the fiddle and wooden flute, the transmitters and shapers of Irish Traditional Music as it has come down to us.

[ccga3359]

Er well um, actually, there was an idea, how true I don't know, being floated just recently in the press and here, that the haggis IS an English invention! Have a nice day.

Oh no, that truly is offral news!

[Smayniac]

Oh no, that truly is offral news!

It must be the impending Burns festivities, the forum has Scooby wondering what I'm laughing at so much this evening.

Bob