what shirt?

**Jock Scot** · 19th February 10, 05:53 AM

Longhunter74.

I don't think it is only in the USA that the wing collar is worn on inappropriate occasions, we see it here in the UK too. I think that it is largely led by hire companies, although I am sure that there are some of the younger generation who are trying to push at the fashion boundaries. Let us hope that we are not led too far astray before sense prevails, or we could have a dreaded "white hose" situation to contend with all over again. Oh no!

**Tartan Hiker** · 19th February 10, 06:02 AM

There was a link posted here not long ago to a web site that illustrated all manner of formal attire...don't have it saved on this computer but if anyone has that handy it would be very helpful in this thread.

**longhuntr74** · 19th February 10, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Longhunter74.

I don't think it is only in the USA that the wing collar is worn on inappropriate occasions, we see it here in the UK too. I think that it is largely led by hire companies, although I am sure that there are some of the younger generation who are trying to push at the fashion boundaries. Let us hope that we are not led too far astray before sense prevails, or we could have a dreaded "white hose" situation to contend with all over again. Oh no!

You made me laugh this morning!! Thanks. The dirty Americans have once again polluted the gene pool in the old country!!!

The formal shirt thing has become a pet peeve of mine. I've actually seen peers show up at military balls wearing black tie with a wing collar tux shirt. If you can't take the time to read the regulations and properly wear the uniform, you shouldn't be wearing it...stick with what you were issued (mess uniform is an optional uniform here in the US, as I expect it may be the case in GB as well). Just my opinion.

**davidlpope** · 19th February 10, 07:11 AM

"Button-Down" collars were originally designed as casual shirts- the buttons secured the free ends of the collar so they would not flap about while one was playing polo.

Although I've never played polo, I typically don't wear them with tie and jacket/ suit. I usually opt for a spread collar as I like a fuller half-windsor knot. I do wear open collar button-downs during the summer with khakis and loafers, which is a sort of unofficial male uniform here in the South.

All that being said, not wearing button-downs with a tie is often a custom "more honored in the breach than the observance" and you'll find many men dressed this way. Iin the same way that you'll see men wearing casual loafers with suits, instead of a more appropriate laced shoe.

Cordially,

David

**thescot** · 19th February 10, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by be da veva

Pre-tied bow tie???

How does that work??? Can that even exist??
Do you cut up the back and sew an elastic band??

Even if you could actually do it, I still prefer to self-tie mine.

That's pretty much what happens. The ties I've seen are all cookie cutter looking in their perfection, and they are provided with a small hook at the back that looks pretty attrocious.

**thescot** · 19th February 10, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by longhuntr74

. . . I know that it is common here in the US to wear wing collared shirts with black tie, but traditional style (as well as my uniform regulations) dictate a turn down collar, pleated front shirt for black tie and reserves the wing collar, hard bosom (pique cotton, heavily starched) shirt for white tie only. Just wanted to share that...a good piece of general knowledge that is commonly violated here in the US.

According to the site you mentioned--and a very good site it is--the winged collar came over quite early on since the tux was kind of a dressed-down version of full dress. I think "violated" is incorrect.

My God, I am the victim of sartorial assasination!

I have photos of my grandfather's uncle in the 1920s wearing a winged collar shirt, so I disagree that it is a modern muddying of the waters. I do understand Miss Manners's objections, but I prefer the winged collar still. AS the site says, the winged collar is perfectly acceptable on this side of the Atlantic. I very nearly bought a new shirt in the Bahamas last week that had a separate collar requiring collar buttons which would have allowed for either collar. I have a couple of attached collar shirts--not all clerical--and I rather enjoy wearing them occassionaly. Makes for a nice conversation piece afterward if I untie the tie and let the collar loose.

**Phil** · 19th February 10, 09:49 AM

I can only speak for Scotland and say that normally with formal highland dress a wing collar and bow tie is worn. This is not to say anything else is incorrect, just what is the norm.

**Jock Scot** · 21st February 10, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Phil

I can only speak for Scotland and say that normally with formal highland dress a wing collar and bow tie is worn. This is not to say anything else is incorrect, just what is the norm.

As much as I hate to disagree with you Phil, I would have said the exact opposite! Perhaps its a regional thing?

**Jack Daw** · 21st February 10, 04:08 PM

I prefer button-down collars, so the shirts I choose to wear for daytime are such. For semi-formal (black-tie), I wear a pointed collar shirt (that also requires studs and cuff-links).

**Lyle1** · 21st February 10, 06:12 PM

It depends. It depends on the shirt, on the tie, on the jacket, and whether I am wearing a vest. I think all of the collar choices can work. I probably would not wear a button down collar with a vest; I think it is too busy, too many details in a confined space. On the other hand, with the right tie...