what shirt?

[thescot]

. . . I know that it is common here in the US to wear wing collared shirts with black tie, but traditional style (as well as my uniform regulations) dictate a turn down collar, pleated front shirt for black tie and reserves the wing collar, hard bosom (pique cotton, heavily starched) shirt for white tie only. Just wanted to share that...a good piece of general knowledge that is commonly violated here in the US.

According to the site you mentioned--and a very good site it is--the winged collar came over quite early on since the tux was kind of a dressed-down version of full dress. I think "violated" is incorrect.

My God, I am the victim of sartorial assasination!

I have photos of my grandfather's uncle in the 1920s wearing a winged collar shirt, so I disagree that it is a modern muddying of the waters. I do understand Miss Manners's objections, but I prefer the winged collar still. AS the site says, the winged collar is perfectly acceptable on this side of the Atlantic. I very nearly bought a new shirt in the Bahamas last week that had a separate collar requiring collar buttons which would have allowed for either collar. I have a couple of attached collar shirts--not all clerical--and I rather enjoy wearing them occassionaly. Makes for a nice conversation piece afterward if I untie the tie and let the collar loose.

[Phil]

I can only speak for Scotland and say that normally with formal highland dress a wing collar and bow tie is worn. This is not to say anything else is incorrect, just what is the norm.

[Jock Scot]

I can only speak for Scotland and say that normally with formal highland dress a wing collar and bow tie is worn. This is not to say anything else is incorrect, just what is the norm.

As much as I hate to disagree with you Phil, I would have said the exact opposite! Perhaps its a regional thing?