Argyll Fans !

[Lachlan09]

Any Argylls historians here ?

Can someone please shed some light on certain units of the Argylls at the start of WW2 – particularly the mysterious 4th Battalion ?

As I understand it, by the end of WW1 and in the interwar-years, the 1st and 2nd Regular Batts were maintained, the 3rd Regular Reserve and 4th Extra Reserve Batts were dissolved, the 5th and 6th Territorial Batts were merged to form the 5/6th Batt, the 7th, 8th and 9th Batts were maintained and all Kitchener and wartime Territorial Batts were disbanded by 1919.

Now the tricky bit ! I believe the following happened in the run-up to WW2 and the Munich scare of 1938, when re-armament was stepped up, steps taken to mobilize forces and protect the public and the TA was ordered to double its strength. The big fear was air attack and the army belatedly tried to address mothballed projects and equip. As of early 1939:-

The 1st and 2nd Regular Batts were performing their internal security duties (Palestine and NWF respectively);

The 5/6th Batt (TA) had duplicated by splitting to re-form the separate 5th and 6th Batts;

The 7th Batt (TA) duplicated a second-line battalion, the 10th, which was brigaded into the new second line division the 9th (Highland) Division – sister of first line 51st (Highland) Division.

The 8th Batt (TA) duplicated a second-line battalion, the 11th, which was brigaded into the new second line division the 9th (Highland) Division – sister of first line 51st (Highland) Division.

The 9th Batt (TA) formed a duplicate battalion, the 4th Batt (TA).

Following a general shortage of artillery and special support units in the expanding British Army in preparation for war, the 9th A&SH was converted to Light-Anti Aircraft artillery, becoming 54th LAA (A&SH), while the 4th A&SH became the 58th LAA (A&SH).

Meanwhile the 5th and 6th Batts both became Machine Gun battalions (A&SH).

All the TA Argylls units saw action with the BEF in France/Belgium in 1940. The 4th Batt (58th LAA) was part of GHQ Reserve, 2nd AA Bde. The 5th Batt was part of I Corps, Corps Troops (MG). The 6th was also part of I Corps, Corps Troops (MG) ? The 7th was part of 154 Bde, 51st Highland Div as was 8th Batt. The 9th Batt (54th LAA) was part of III Corps (Corps Troops) (HQ RA).

After Dunkirk and St Valery, the 10th and 11th Batts were absorbed by the surviving elements of the 7th and 8th Batts. The 9th (Highland) Div was used to reconstitute the new 51st (Highland) Div.

The 5th was absorbed by the 6th Batt and was converted to Self-Propelled Anti-Tank artillery, becoming the 91st AT Regt RA (A&SH) which fought in NW Europe in VIII Corps 2nd Army, while the 54th LAA ( A&SH) was also converted to SP-AT and became the 93rd AT Regt RA (A&SH) and fought in North Africa and Italy with V Corps, 1st army then 8th Army. The 58th LAA remained in service as mobile light anti-aircraft artillery and fought in NW Europe with 11th Armoured Div.

Of course, other battalions were raised as drafts, training and home defence units and disbanded during the war – such as 12th, 13th and 14th Batts and 30th, 50th and 70th Batts. Most famous was the 15th Batt, a reserve battalion, which in a special 1942 parade was informed it would become known as the 2nd Batt and inherit the 2nd’s traditions and colours. The original regular 2nd Batt had recently been destroyed in the fight to defend Malaya from the whirlwind Japanese offensive. The new 2nd Batt became brigaded with 227 (Highland) Infantry Brigade, which in 1943 became part of the newly-activated 15th (Scottish) Division. It fought in hard battles in NW Europe (notably against Waffen SS armour and infantry in Normandy) and was one of the best divs of 2nd British Army.

Lastly, the 1st Battalion moved to Egypt in 1940 and joined 8th Army’s 14th Infantry Bde, 8th Infantry Div then 4th Indian Div, fighting at Sidi Barrani, Crete, El Alamein, Sicily then joining 8th Indian Div in Italy.

I would be grateful to anyone know if I am on the right track or not.

[BoldHighlander]

Big fan/student of the Argylls during WWI (I use to have a website devoted to them until geocities shut down all free sites last October ).

Can't really help you with post WWI though. I'm sure someone else here will.
I'll be watching & learning however

[Lachlan09]

An interesting thing about WW1. I’m not sure if you’re aware, but there is a rule of thumb for working out which division a brigade belonged to. Divide by 3 and the resulting number gives you the middle brigade of the division. For example, 153 Bde, divided by 3 gives you 51st Division. As middle brigade, the other brigades are 152 and 154. It works a treat, but not so much in WW2, where brigades were sometimes re-assigned to other divisions eg 227 Highland Bde went to 15th Scottish Div in 1943, whereas the 15th’s original brigades were 44, 45, 46.

But even for WW1, this system gives a logic flaw. If you accept consecutive brigades grouped in threes into divisions, then 1,2,3 Bdes should be 1st Div, 4,5,6 Bdes are 2nd Div which means the last brigade is the multiplier, so 51st Div should be 151, 152 and 153. Where’s the glitch ?

I pondered this many times until I researched WW1 divisions brigade by brigade at various points in the war. The odd man out which throws off this multiplier system is 19 Bde. The original BEF of August 1914 had 6 regular infantry divisions formed pre-war. Their brigades were numbers 1 – 18 as you would logically expect. The BEF’s LOC battalions, including the 2nd Batt A&SH, were not grouped into a numbered sub-formation, but were collectively referred to as LOC Troops. However, at Le Cateau on 27th August, the LOC battalions formed a valuable rearguard. They were afterward formed officially into 19 Brigade, unattached.

As further regular units started to be recalled from the Empire and were about to form 7th and 8th Divisions, 19 Bde in France became attached to 6th Div, which now had 4 brigades instead of the usual 3. That meant that 7th Division’s brigades would now be numbered 20, 21 and 22, the middle brigade defining the divisional number.

[BoldHighlander]

Interesting info...thanks!

[Lachlan09]

Also interestingly, the 7th Division became known as ‘The Immortal Seventh”, partly for its exploits during the autumn fighting of 1914 culminating in the 1st Battle of Ypres, but also because it was made up entirely of serving regulars, the first of 5 divisions to be formed of full-strength serving Regulars recalled from Empire (7th, 8th, 27th, 28th, 29th). Under pre-war organization, all British regular battalions serving overseas were kept at full strength (around 1,050 all ranks) with serving regulars. This was in case of unrest or rebellion requiring British troops’ immediate intervention, where sending to the UK for reinforcements would be impracticable.

Meanwhile, battalions stationed in the UK and Ireland were kept at 2/3 full strength (about 650 all ranks) during peace-time. If mobilized for war, they would be brought up to full war strength by mobilized regular reservists (ex-regular soldiers with a continuing military obligation who were required to train/refresh every year of their obligation). The 6 Regular divisions of the BEF thus comprised 2/3 regulars and 1/3 reservists. The Battle of Mons is all the more amazing when you consider that the BEF at that time only had 4 of its 6 infantry divisions available (2 divisions were being kept in the UK meanwhile in case of German invasion), of whom 1/3 were men who had been working in offices, farms, factories and shops just 2 weeks before.

[skauwt]

my grandfather was in the 51st Highland Division he was captured as his group was ordered to stay put and defending the retreating lines needless to say he was a guest in the German pow camps for 5 years after Dunkirk and spent most of his time in Poland at stalag xxa

it was 4 years before my grandmother heard news he was still alive by hearing word from a local women whose husband was prisoner with him and managed to get a letter to them somehow
interesting information though it gives me a insight into how his company would have altered over time

[Lachlan09]

For further info, if this helps, the numbering of British divisions in WW1 seems illogical in some ways, with regular divisions, territorial divisions and New Army (Kitchener) divisions all mixed together. Also, Territorial divisions have higher numbers than wartime Kitchener divisions, despite being in existence longer. Why ?

Well, as of 1914, there were 6 numbered permanent Regular Army divisions in existence, numbered 1 - 6. These divisions, split in pairs into 3 Corps, formed the infantry element of the BEF. Further British regular units could be summoned from overseas if required and formed into further divisions. Meanwhile, the part-time volunteers had been formed into the Territorial Force, with battalions attached to the well-known country regiments where they were consecutively numbered. These TF battalions were grouped into un-numbered regional divisions (14 in all) such as Highland Division, Lowland Division, Northumbrian Division, 1st London Division, Welsh Division etc – but there was no TF organised in Ireland, due to risk of armed civil war between Republicans and Loyalists. The TF supported the regulars by being ready on mobilization to guard key locations in the UK and garrison overseas locations of the Empire as required. They were not expected to fight in Europe etc.

Meanwhile, Lord Kitchener (Sec of War), was, for a long time before the war, doubtful that Britain could hope for a short, limited war of a battle or two which would result peacefully in diplomatic negotiations. He was therefore planning an expansion of the regular army, to be brought into being in event of war. He, like most British generals, wrote off the 14 TF divisions as part-time amateurs with complex rules of engagement, suitable only for garrison work. So he by-passed them, intending to create a large wartime army of civilian volunteers directly, modeled on the Regular Army. This would be the New Army, also known as Kitchener’s Army, organised like the BEF as 6 infantry divisions of 3 brigades of 4 battalions per brigade, roughly 100,000 men. He wanted 3 such groups of 6 divisions, to be called K1, K2 and K3. Of course it would be some time before they could take the field.

When war came, Kitchener stretched out his arm on wall posters everywhere. Recruits flocked in. Meanwhile, the BEF regulars mobilized its 6 divisions and went off to France. The TF too were recruiting. They had waived their garrison only rights and wanted to fight, so they duplicated (later triplicated) their battalions into active units to go to war and those who voted to stay in the UK /garrison Empire.

As regular units were organized into divisions on return from abroad, the army’s list of infantry divisions expanded. 1st to 6th divisions were the pre-war BEF, the 7th and 8th Divs were formed from the first regulars to arrive from Empire, then K1 (New Army) took the next six divisions – 9th Scottish, 10th Irish, 11th Northern, 12th Eastern, 13th Western and 14th Light. Though Kitchener war volunteers, 9th to 13th were formed using the names of the 5 Regular regional home commands, whilst the 14th was a national division. 15th to 20th Divisions repeated the process (K2). However, K3 (21st to 26th Divs) gave up the regional idea and was organized on divisions of a mix of battalions from whatever UK regiments could fill them. Then the bulk of returning Regulars from further stations of Empire were organised as 27th, 28th and 29th Regular divisions.

Exceeding expectations , Kitchener’s initiative had resulted in a K4 formation, which was withdrawn to become a training and reserve level. A new K4 was formed (30th to 35th Divs) taking over the “Pals Battalions” which had been privately organized as patriotic civilian units throughout the main towns and cities of the UK and had been awaiting adoption by the Army. K5 was the last group, 36th to 41st Divisions, made up of regional divisions, pals battalions and other volunteer battalions.

Meanwhile, like this post, the war went on. Due to shortages of men in Autumn 1914, the Generals needed troops from India, West Indies, Canada to support the growing war. Even the much-derided Territorials were asked to contribute battalions (not divisions !) to the fighting in France/Belgium. The TF battaions would be put into the BEF’s depleted regular divisions. The first TF battalion to see action was the 14th Middlesex TF County of London (1st London Scottish) in October. Thereafter, more and more TF battalions were sucked into the BEF. As a result, divisions like the 1st London Division and the Highland Division shrank in size as their battalions were cherry-picked for the regular BEF.

Finally, in February 1915, the TF was given the go-ahead to send their own 14 divisions on active service. Those TF divisions ready to go were given numbers in the order they were ready to go. The Lancashire Div was first and received the number 42. Cherry-picked divisions like the 1st London and the Highland Div, which by February 1915 had each only six of their 12 battalions remaining, had to wait for other battalions to become available. As a result, the un-plundered 2nd London Div became the 47th Div, while the 1st London, when back to full-strength, had to plump for 56th Division. The Highland Division, which did not want a number at all, managed to get 2 Black Watch battalions from an independent brigade, plus an English independent brigade – North Lancashire Bde. Ready by end of April, it received the number 51. A second group of TF divisions was then formed for active and reserve duties. This group also included a division made up of surplus Royal Navy and Royal Marines personnel – the 63rd Naval Div. A further handful of TF and Yeomanry divisions were formed as the war demanded.

At the beginning of 1916, the 51st said goodbye to the North Lancashire Bde and formed a brigade of incoming Highland battalions, included some plundered a year before. The 51st started its climb to a famous reputation that same summer on the Somme. A legend was born.

WW2 was much more complicated !

[Lachlan09]

my grandfather was in the 51st Highland Division he was captured as his group was ordered to stay put and defending the retreating lines needless to say he was a guest in the German pow camps for 5 years after Dunkirk and spent most of his time in Poland at stalag xxa

it was 4 years before my grandmother heard news he was still alive by hearing word from a local women whose husband was prisoner with him and managed to get a letter to them somehow
interesting information though it gives me a insight into how his company would have altered over time

Was that the camp at Thorn, Poland ?

Back in the 60’s/70’s, I knew 2 ex-POW’s from the 51st , both living in Edinburgh. One was Jimmy Fulton, a Seaforths RSM, who was captured at St Valery. He became the Stalag’s “British Man Of Confidence”, the go-between for British and Germans. When I got to know him, he gave me his aluminium German POW ID oval, plus some POW camp money/tokens bearing the red triangle, plus some other of his POW items. Unluckily, they disappeared during my divorce when I was abroad and my separated wife was in the UK. Beyond my control, they got sold off for a song to some trader along with much of my memorabilia. My Foreign Legion collection was saved only because luckily it was still in my parents’ house.

The other man, also a Seaforth captured at St Valery, was Donald Montgomery, a pugnacious Hebridean ! When I knew him, one eye was permanently squint as a result of a German rifle-butt. During the march into captivity, he slipped out of the line of march to answer the call of nature. As he squatted under a bridge, a German guard appeared, shouting at him to get back in line. Donald, his battledress trousers at his ankles, complained and after further a mutual retort, looked up and shouted something very rude in Gaelic, the passion of which needed no translation. He got a rifle butt slammed into his temple for his troubles, dislodging one eye.

[Lachlan09]

I’ve just had an amazing revelation about the Argylls.

Whilst looking for further website info on 5th A&SH (WW2) with a view to their mid-war history, I came across a website called “francefightson.org”. I arrived at Chapter 40, entitled “January 20, 1942: British Order of Battle in Malaya and Borneo - To Chief of the Imperial General Staff General Sir Alan Brooke K.C.B., - Report on the status of His Majesty’s Armies in the field and in fortresses as of 0.600 hours 20th day of January in the year of Our Lord 1942”. It was prepared by General Sir John Standish Surtees Prendergast Vereker, V.C; K.C.B; D.S.O; M.C; 6th Viscount Gort, Peerage of Ireland, G.O.C. Malaya Command.

It is a very detailed list of all British, Commonwealth and Empire military units, including non-coms and ad-hoc units, in Malaya and Borneo, where stationed at that time, their equipment on hand etc during the Japanese offensive. It lists such as the SOE “Stay-Behind” units, as well as the Aussie/British raiding “Rose Force” commanded by Major Lloyd A.I.F. & Major Rose 2nd Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (founder & observer attached from Malaya).

The 2nd A&SH is listed of course, it’s CO, (now) Brigadier I. Stewart - commanding 12th Bde (Rengam). Of course, the 2nd Argylls are forever linked with the Malaya Campaign of 1941-42.

However, I was very surprised to find that the 5th and 6th Battalions A&SH, both still MG units, were also in Malaya at this time. They were part of 11th Indian Division based at Gurun. Up to this moment, I never knew Argylls units, other than the 2nd, were in Malaya too at this time ! I have never seen it referred to in books on the Argylls or even on the Argylls’ own website.

It warrants further research to see what became of them. Did they end up in Singapore ? Did they cease to exist like the 2nd Battalion ? Were they withdrawn before the campaign ended ? Does this help to explain why the 5th and 6th Battalions were merged in the UK under the name of the 6th and were converted to SP artillery ? I will find out !

BTW, Scottish units listed as being in Malaya at this time are:-

5th (M.G. Bn) Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (11th Indian Div - Gurun)

6th (M.G. Bn) Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (11th Indian Div - Gurun)

2nd (M.G.) Liverpool Scottish (King’s Regiment); (13th Lancashire Div. -ex Krohcol)

10th Highland Light Infantry; (16th Indian Division; Kahang & R.A.F. Kahang)

5th Cameronians & City of Glasgow (Highland Light Infantry) (16th Indian Division; Kahang & R.A.F. Kahang)

8th Cameronians & City of Glasgow (Highland Light Infantry) (16th Indian Division; Kahang & R.A.F. Kahang)

2nd Gordon Highlanders; (9th Indian Division; R.A.F. Kluang Air Field & Kluang)

2nd Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (12th Indian Bde; Rengam)

[skauwt]

Was that the camp at Thorn, Poland ?

that's the one
ive not known too much about his time in the camp.. not sure if my father or aunt could tell me much about it these days ,
he did some work on the farms there so apart from manual labour i don't know if he went through any hardship ,
but he got rid of his medals not long after the war so he wasn't one for any story's about what had happened and i gather he wasn't too happy about being a pow
he was in the army pre war for a good few years and as far as i know he got the rank of 2nd leftenant ive no idea about his roles
here is a couple of pictures of the issued clothing he had during his time that you may be interested in seeing

(seated on the right hand side)