US Army Tartan

[Highland Logan]

Perhaps if you'd visited Alexis Malcolm's website you'd clearly see she is not an outsider.

"Remember these faces. These are a sampling of the lads that went to Vietnam. Many didn’t want to go, but it was their duty. They went for their Country but they fought for each other. They fought to stay alive & come home to families & friends who loved them. They laughed, they joked, they had their private fears & dreams of their future. 58,000 did not return. They were your brothers, your sons, your friends & your fathers. These above were Marines, but the Army, Navy, Airforce & Coast Guard sent their best as well. To be truly good patriots, we must all never forget the price of war nor engage in it for foolish purposes & never forget our Lads & Lassies who served, no matter their age, whether they come home or not...They paid the price & we owe them a heartfelt gratitude. Above all else though, we owe them sound judgement.

Semperi Fi ! Alexis Malcolm, proud daughter of a US Navy Doctor who went with "his" Marines to Bouganville & Guadalcanal, Navy wife, Navy Submariner's sister & Mom of a US Marine."

http://www.alexismalcolmkilts.com/1089/1098.html Go to this webpage, perhaps you will understand where Alexis' heart was in creating the Army tartan.

What I do not understand is how you sir, can insult another man's tartan, then expect the other man to agree with your insult and expect him to justify why you do not have the right to insult his tartan.

Insulting another man's tartan as not "proud and honorable" is self-evident disrespect, as is assuming an aloof position and demanding the pride and honor of another man's tartan be justified.

I still fail to see why you have such an interest in demanding the pride an honor of the U.S. Army tartan be proven to your satisfaction.

The insult originated from you sir. The pride and honor of the U.S. Army tartan is self-evident.

And, I can only speculate that IF England had fallen the next invasion would have been of Newfoundland and my guess is that the men and women of the U.S. Army would have gladly defended Canadian soil. Certainly, my ancestors would have since we are also of Canadian ancestry.

As for Afganistan, there were Canadians that died on 9-11 too.

Ron you come from a place I could never reason with.

Frank

[Riverkilt]

If your expectation is that I accept your insult and disrespect to the U.S. Army tartan as not being a proud and honorable tartan then I agree with you.

If your expectation that I accept that Alexis Malcolm is an "outsider" despite her family's extensive military service then I agree with you.

You cannot reason with me.

Sir, the initial insult was yours. I have no clue why you felt the "need" to make it or why you felt the "need" to label Alexis an outsider. I can assure you I disagree with you.

[Highlander31]

I have read the discourse on how the unauthorized Army tartan can be “proud and honorable.” Normally, I do not get involved in a heated discussion over a tartan. However, I joined the Army in 1971 at the age of 18, and since my life has been to some degree shaped by that experience. I felt I should post some observations.

Highland Logan, by my count Riverkilt did answer your question three different ways (twice in post #17 and once again in post #28.) Longhuntr74 suggested Riverkilt may have been referring to the legacy of the Armed Forces that the tartans represent and not the legacy of the tartans themselves. You begin your response to him with "no real offense intended" then you rebuffed him without acknowledging his point, and again asked Riverkilt to answer your question.

Peacekeeper83 offered an answer from a Marine’s point of view.

Its a fashion tartan to you.... to those of us who served in the Marines, it has a completely different meaning.. official or not.. it represents our service... the Marines may not have officially adopted the tartan, but it is widely accepted Marine Corps wide, as the tartan representation of our service.

Every year, on the Marine Corps Birthday, balls are held in all parts of the world, and it would be a common sight to see kilted Marines wearing the Leatherneck tartan.. it has our name on it.. and it is cherished, by all who served.. it represents everything important to us... to the men and women we lost in times of war and conflicts, to those who proudly the Marine Corps, throughout history.

So, you are right... to you..it is just a fashion tartan... to me... it is a lot more... and unless you earned the title of Marine, I am afraid, you will never understand.

Your response to peacekeeper83.

And peacekeeper83, thank you for your discription. You are right I don't get it, and it has nothing to do with not being a Marine. Our military has symbols, but they come from within, not from outsiders.

Peacekeeper83 is an insider telling you the Marines consider the Leatherneck tartan to be a symbol of their service and as he says "it represents everything important to us." There are many things in life that must be experienced to be understood. The Marine Corps is one of those things (as peacekeeper83 stated.) After being politely advised of that point, you insult peacekeeper83 by telling him it has nothing to do with being a Marine.

Highland Logan, it appears from your posts, a military branch must officially recognize a tartan in order for it to be acceptable for wear by those the tartan was designed to honor. It is also apparent, that in your opinion, anyone like Alexis Malcolm, whose father was a US Navy Doctor who went with "his" Marines to Bouganville & Guadalcanal, is a Navy wife, whose brother is a Submariner, and has a son, who is a US Marine, is an outsider. That outsider as you call her has to live everyday knowing she may be informed at anytime that her husband, brother, or son won’t be coming home. Just like all the other military families (including those in your country.)

Funny, you didn’t mention which branch of your county’s armed forces you were in.

[seanachie]

Canadian not English, so we never called for your help, but have answered yours.. Afghanistan.Frank

You should be very careful with remarks like that. When you say "yours" this is not American request these are coalition forces under the ISAF, NATO lead and established by the UN. It would be helpful to establish these facts correctly, particular in light of the Canadian withdrawal. Despite what the NDP says the road to peace is through security.

[rdjmchris]

This thread got hijacked bad. To the original post, waaaaaaaayyyyy back on page one:

Bog Trotter, get the Army Tartan if you like. It is a sharp tartan and is accepted by everyone except the "Kilt Police". I plan on eventually owning one myself.

Strike Hold! RLTW! Garryowen!

Chris

[Highland Logan]

Let me say this. English is a pretty precise language. Ron said that an un-recognized tartan was “proud and honorable”. I disagree that an un-recognized object, tartan or otherwise could be such a thing. I never implied that any branch of the US military was un-honorable are service to such was something to not be proud of. When I say that outsider created something, that means that it was not sanctioned or created by the group said object was made to represent. When someone tells me that wearing a tartan such as this makes or reminds them of the hounor and pride they feel in their branch of the Armed Forces, this is something I can understand. However this does not make the object

...such a proud and honorable tartan.

And I guess

Is there something special about the Black Watch tartan that makes it proud and honorable? Not in my opinion...

was not a slight to a tartan worn in more battles than some peoples regiments have been around.
I tried to stay out of politics, because this was about tartan, but Ron’s comment

It is so tempting to ask where your service group would be today were it not for the assistance of the U.S. Army......

Ron assumed I was British, so I guess he didn’t have to be careful about his remarks. And since politics are taboo here, maybe you should be careful about yours.

You should be very careful with remarks like that. When you say "yours" this is not American request these are coalition forces under the ISAF, NATO lead and established by the UN. It would be helpful to establish these facts correctly, particular in light of the Canadian withdrawal. Despite what the NDP says the road to peace is through security.

I served 13 years in the Artillery, and last I checked I am still free to have my own opinions on wither or not our forces should be involved in a particular conflict, and my own opinion on how we ended up there. None of which have anything to do with tartan. I told the Mods I would stay out of this tread... but I guess there was not much chance of that with it still open and others who just can't leave things be.

Frank

[Steve Ashton]

This thread has now been reported for the second time.

As I am the only member of the Staff on line at the moment I am locking this thread pending review and discussion by the Forum Moderators.