Why a kilt costs what it does...a re-re-re-hash

[wildrover]

Read:

Faster, Better, Cheaper: The Iron Triangle of Higher Education Assessment

Not what I am talking about. You are assuming that, not me.

I assumed nothing, it was an example, showing that major differences in price will only happen when either labor, material, or overhead cost are strikingly different between sellers. If someone is working from their home, their overhead cost will be low. If they are in a very small town with low rates on space, again, overhead is low. Since I think it's fairly safe to assume everyone is getting their material from the same group of sources, the major differences will be either in labor rate or overhead. Many businesses online are able to offer the prices they do, simply because they have no storefront...or share a storefront with another business.

So, first, who decides those 3 people are at the top of their game? Also, who decides that they are the best? Who decides that they are as FAST as anyone can go? Seems a little subjective to me.

I don't see how that's subjective unless you're in to subjective equality as a philosophical hobby or something. I don't have any talent making kilts, neither do most people, and it is a very small market, so I'm pretty certain that I'm correct in saying they're among the best kiltmakers in the world. Sounds big and weighty, but like I said, how many full-time (or even part-time, for-profit) kiltmakers can you list? I think we'd be lucky to list a hundred. I am making the assumption that, as full-time professionals rather than hobbyists, they're making kilts as fast as they can, since literally time is equivalent to money, and for a flat rate product, speed is profitable.

So, without picking random, one-in-a-million exceptions, I think it's statistically valid to state things like "top of their game" and "as fast as possible". I didn't say they are the best kiltmakers...rather, they are in a group of the best kiltmakers. If I didn't name someone's name, it was oversight, not rejection, and if you were to grab any random group of professional tailors and put them to work on a flat-rate kilt project, I bet they'll sew about as fast as any of these kiltmakers.

Traditional can me lots of different things. If by traditional, you mean traditionally TRAINED, then that eliminates most of the custom kilt makers on this form. Most have not had the training that others, Like Barb T., has had. Therefore, going by what you say is Traditional, most of the kilts made by people on this forum are NOT traditional and therfore not as good. Sounds a little silly to me.

No, you said all that stuff was traditional. I said "traditional and traditional style, and then put "traditional" in quotes to denote that it was not a concrete descriptor...but let's say "tank" instead, because, like "traditional" in quotes, it's specific enough without specifying exactly how all the little details are handled, and in our discussion of price vs. product, it removes any ambiguity presented by hand-sewn 4-yard box pleats, kingussie pleats, and so forth. 8-yard, knife-pleated kilts are common, so they're easy to compare...the material is close enough to be considered "the same" (how many mills produce 16oz wool tartan?), and the labor going in to the finished product is the same (everyone has to perform the same operations), which leaves the difference in price at the door of labor rate and overhead cost. Incidentally, you can do the same with PV kilts, as I noticed in a quick scan of a bunch of websites.

Again, not what I am talking about. I never said anything about finding cheaper labor in a foreign country. We are talking about USA made goods. Sorry if you got lost in the conversation.

Now, don't huck me in to the trees based on your interpretation or application of my examples! I am certainly not lost in the conversation. Labor and overhead rates are the two greatest potential sources of profit margin. I provided extreme examples, extrapolation is up to you. But here is a less extreme example. The disparity between the Canadian and American economies (in other words, the price of a gallon of milk in Canada, vs America, in each country's respective dollars), and a variant exchange rate, means that even in two Western countries, big-ticket and durable goods may be a better deal when purchased by citizens of one country, in the other country's economy. Another way to think of it is, if you are living in one economy, your make your wages, pay your rent, buy your food, etc. in that economy, then your comparative expenses as a percentage of your income should be very, very similar to your expenses in another economy...for example, the USA, Britain, Canada, and Australia.

Excepting petrol, speeding tickets, and ammunition, your standard of living should be very similar in all four economies, but because the exchange rate isn't keeping exact pace with a gallon of milk in Australia vs Britannia vs Canadia vs Americania, you can get a kilt comparatively cheaper right now if you are Canadian and can sort out a purchase from an American kiltmaker.

By the same token, the various measures of cost of living can be used within the USA to guess at what areas would have the lowest overhead rates.

That is a good way to justify doing two things:

1. Charging high prices (from a company owners perspective)
2. Paying High prices (from a consumers perspective)

If what you say is true, than you can justify whatever you want.

What you have just stated is the reason that prices are so ridiculously high at Starbucks, Apple, Banana Republic, and other businesses compared to the quality of the product. What you have identified is a little game that retailers and consumers play...if you are a retailer, and you charge too little, nobody takes you seriously. You must price your product equivalent to your competition, to be considered by an uneducated consumer as being in the same range of quality or performance. To a blockheaded consumer, paying more must mean a better product. This is an assumption leveraged by many a mall retailer to increase profit margin. I am leery of applying that assertion in this case, as quality goods in a niche market tend to be built for their own sake, less so with profit as the ultimate goal. I'm not saying people make kilts out of the goodness of their hearts, I'm saying it's one of few industries where the quality of the product is expected to drive profit, compared to "mall goods" where profit and price point are allowed to drive product quality.

I have just purchased two kilts within a years time and fullfilled ALL three of what you are saying.

I'm glad you feel that way. Frankly, if I'm getting a kilt from the vendors whose sites I've browsed through links here, I'm pretty sure I'm getting a good deal. May I assume you're referring to PV kilts? If so, the price differences between vendors weren't large, when the same (or very similar) item is concerned. I'm not sure where the price disparity you're referring to, is coming from...because I think I'm free to assume that the quality is similar, and unless you got something off the rack, they were built in similar time by similar methods.

I think most people are smart enough to figure things out. Most people, me included, realize that a good quality item will cost more than normal. However, we also realize that paying a high price, just because some people say high price = high quality, does not always mean you will get high quality. It might even be the opposite In some cases, it is the sign of someone trying to rip you off.

Most people are savvy enough to catch the last, if it smacks them in the face, or if it's being sold in a full-page paid advertisement, or being hawked by the Slap Chop guy (look it up on YouTube). Otherwise, I think (as someone famously said) that individuals can be intelligent, whereas people are dumb, panicky animals.

Again this is my basic point: You can make High Quality items, in the USA, for a good price. Not necessarily a cheap price, but a good, fair price. I would say, Rocky, that the following groups you mentioned:

Good Quality / Good price
HIGH Quality and HIGH price.

Overlap more than people would realize.

So...I don't get it, then. I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in price between retailers, in this niche market, any more than I've noticed a huge difference in price between bagpipe retailers, sporran makers, or sock knitters. Are you saying that everyone but the makers(?) of your two recent kilts is overcharging? Are you just saying that the kiltmaker you've chosen has a lower overhead or labor rate? Are you suggesting there is a different business model that aspiring kiltmakers should follow? Are you willing to consider that other products may be of better quality material or construction than your purchases? I'm not slighting anyone, I'm only trying to cover all the bases as to why one kilt might cost more than another.

I think we can AGREE to DISAGREE

I think the only thing we might all agree on is that we all like the sound of our own keyboards clicking away . I'm out...got other stuff I gotta do ...but I'll read your reply, should you choose to ...

-Sean

[bricelythgoe]

I think the only thing we might all agree on is that we all like the sound of our own keyboards clicking away . I'm out...got other stuff I gotta do ...but I'll read your reply, should you choose to ...

-Sean

What keyboard do you have?? I hate the sound of mine...

[NorCalPiper]

I think that a kilt is worth what the buyer is willing to pay. I LOVE my PV kilts and think they are just as good and comparable to Rocky or Steve's. I have the luxury of not having a store front, so my pricing does not have the factors that they do.

I don't make 100% hand stitched kilts, but what I do make (half/half hand/machine) are complete contenders and priced fairly. I am lucky in that my store is the most unique on the market as far as offering new, and innovative ideas for an assortment of products. Because I make 2 of the lines (Sporrans and kilts), and have direct contact and relationships with the vendors who make my other stuff, I am able to make a REALLY nice spread of pricing, while at the same time, a living.

I'm not in this to be the next USA kilts or Burnett & Struth. I am EXTREMELY proud of what I've done with my own sector and where I stand today, and I'm also glad to be part of these exciting times where we see companies like USAKilts, Freedom kilts, B&S really taking the lead for the NA market and establishing lifelong relationships with customers here where the market is booming (My waiting list for N.A. and Canadian customers is almost at 4 months for everything across the board). I also love being the "Apple Computer" in a PC world....."Think Different"....

So spend what you want on your favorite maker! I love it that Brice loves my stuff. Everyone who has bought one of my PVs falls in-love with them, so I feel like I'm doing my part. I love it that Ron buys all his PVs from Rocky, which shows his passion for kilt wearing and who he buys it from. I love it that I have bought a casual for myself from B&S and can't wait to wear it. I love it that Matt and Lady Chrystel have reintroduced something wonderful to us, and are both setting tradition and customer love through their work. I love it that every single alt-kilt that I see in the Bay area is a freedom kilt. Its all about wearing a kilt and being free....right? I love this life more than I EVER loved it. I want you all to love being kilted and not get weighted down by these kind of post questions.

[Danwell]

I think that a kilt is worth what the buyer is willing to pay. I LOVE my PV kilts and think they are just as good and comparable to Rocky or Steve's. I have the luxury of not having a store front, so my pricing does not have the factors that they do.

I don't make 100% hand stitched kilts, but what I do make (half/half hand/machine) are complete contenders and priced fairly. I am lucky in that my store is the most unique on the market as far as offering new, and innovative ideas for an assortment of products. Because I make 2 of the lines (Sporrans and kilts), and have direct contact and relationships with the vendors who make my other stuff, I am able to make a REALLY nice spread of pricing, while at the same time, a living.

I'm not in this to be the next USA kilts or Burnett & Struth. I am EXTREMELY proud of what I've done with my own sector and where I stand today, and I'm also glad to be part of these exciting times where we see companies like USAKilts, Freedom kilts, B&S really taking the lead for the NA market and establishing lifelong relationships with customers here where the market is booming (My waiting list for N.A. and Canadian customers is almost at 4 months for everything across the board). I also love being the "Apple Computer" in a PC world....."Think Different"....

So spend what you want on your favorite maker! I love it that Brice loves my stuff. Everyone who has bought one of my PVs falls in-love with them, so I feel like I'm doing my part. I love it that Ron buys all his PVs from Rocky, which shows his passion for kilt wearing and who he buys it from. I love it that I have bought a casual for myself from B&S and can't wait to wear it. I love it that Matt and Lady Chrystel have reintroduced something wonderful to us, and are both setting tradition and customer love through their work. I love it that every single alt-kilt that I see in the Bay area is a freedom kilt. Its all about wearing a kilt and being free....right? I love this life more than I EVER loved it. I want you all to love being kilted and not get weighted down by these kind of post questions.

As someone new to all this kilting stuff (and someone who doesn't even own a kilt yet!) this is the kind of attitude that makes me think that it doesn't matter what it costs as long as you love what you're wearing. Every single one of you got into kilting knowing entirely that it wasn't a cheap hobby, past-time, lifestyle or way of dress. If the price is so objectionable, then don't buy. If the goods are genuinely over priced and the profit margin really is huge, then the prices will fall when demand plumets.

The thing it, we all know that $650 for a hand made 16oz Freedom kilt is a bargain because you are receiving an heirloom quality garment that is made with impeccable quality by a talented kilt maker, and is made with love.
Equally, a half machine/half hand sewn 8 yard (!!!) PV from Josh at under $200 is incredible value.........but they're marketed to different people, with different needs, and are made in different ways by people with different lives in different areas to different specs.

I don't think anyone here begrudges the Barb T.'s and the Matt Newsome's of the world charging what they do for their labour, because we're all greatful for the opportunity they provide to buy a piece of their art. I understand why Brice asked what he did: if they money is so bad, why are there so many doing it? I don't know either, and you have to wonder if really is that bad...........if it is, then I'm greatful for these people and the time they sacrifice to allow us to enjoy kilting.

[artificer]

The thing it, we all know that $650 for a hand made 16oz Freedom kilt is a bargain because you are receiving an heirloom quality garment that is made with impeccable quality by a talented kilt maker, and is made with love.
Equally, a half machine/half hand sewn 8 yard (!!!) PV from Josh at under $200 is incredible value.........but they're marketed to different people, with different needs, and are made in different ways by people with different lives in different areas to different specs.

Well said! Not everyone would wear a $1-3000 suit every day, even if everyone could afford it. For me, right now, a hand made wool kilt is not only a luxury I can ill afford, but with my 4yr old around, I'd be in a constant state of terror that I'd get SOMETHING on it- the same reason I don't wear a nice suit when out with my son.

I don't think anyone here begrudges the Barb T.'s and the Matt Newsome's of the world charging what they do for their labour, because we're all greatful for the opportunity they provide to buy a piece of their art. I understand why Brice asked what he did: if they money is so bad, why are there so many doing it? I don't know either, and you have to wonder if really is that bad...........if it is, then I'm greatful for these people and the time they sacrifice to allow us to enjoy kilting.

I'm not in a position to speak for any of our 'pro' kilt makers, but I do know something about working for yourself making things.

Generally it IS a labour of love. Sure, you'll make some money, but if you compare the hours that go into hand labour for a given dollar amount (after subtracting material costs) vs the hours/pay at a decent mid-level job... it usually boils down to "This person is doing [X] because they LOVE it, NOT because they plan on getting rich".

For example: assume an 8yr kilt retails for $600 and takes 12hrs to make by hand. 16oz fabric retails for $60-80 a yard, so assume the wholesale is $30-40 (and I don't know what mark up is on material like this, but am basing it on other goods).

8yds = $240-320
600-240 = 360
360/12 = $30/hr.

this includes no other material/ wear and tear on tools/ etc. I also took high numbers for sale price of kilt and low for cost of fabric.

if you break it down the other way with a kilt taking more like 20hrs and the fabric cost high you get
8ed = 320
600-320= 280
280/20= $14/hr.

Nobody's retiring to their private island on $14/hr.

When I was in interior design, I used to get (and this was 12yrs ago) $60-80/hr for consultation, meetings, drafting, and original design. The second I stepped into the shop to make something that wasn't available I was working for far less than half that. With the advent of cheap overseas labour and more of our job force moving away from 'hand work', people have no idea of the hours (and therefore, to the craftsperson, $$$) that go into making custom products.

When I've got the free cash (and feel that my son won't get hummus all over it) I'll be pleased as punch to fork over my cash to one of our pros for a custom 8yd 16oz kilt. And I'll feel like I'M the one who got the better end of the bargain.

[toadinakilt]

I don't think anyone here begrudges the Barb T.'s and the Matt Newsome's of the world charging what they do for their labour, because we're all greatful for the opportunity they provide to buy a piece of their art. I understand why Brice asked what he did: if they money is so bad, why are there so many doing it? I don't know either, and you have to wonder if really is that bad...........if it is, then I'm greatful for these people and the time they sacrifice to allow us to enjoy kilting.

Agree with the first part, take umbrage at the second. I'm pretty positive the money sucks.

Why do artists of any ilk do what they do? Just because a kilt is a garment, doesn't mean it's not in the same category as a fine portrait, beautiful vase, or heck, a 3-movement work for wind quintet. Artists almost never make enough to live on. I know a few in the Asheville area who do, but they only become "successful" when they mass-produce their art, print it onto mugs, whatever.

The money is never great in the fine arts. Artists enjoy what they do. And what kilt makers charge is frankly quite unfair... to them.

My two cents, again.