HRH at Greenville Games

[BoldHighlander]

I have found the discussions quite riveting and helpful in understanding the whole thing.

Not that I understand it yet, but after a few more readings, I think I will.

I appreciate your expertise, gentlemen, and I appreciate your sharing it.

I am not in the least bored by it, even though it has no impact on my life.

I second TheScot's comments; I've found this fascinating. Thanks to MoR and McClef for taking the time to share their knowledge. For those of us who are not as savvy as others, are there any books we could be directed to that deal with this topic?

I completely agree gentlemen, always very interesting & I tend to learn something new

Thank you Trefor & Scott for the discussion

[McClef]

I have found the discussions quite riveting and helpful in understanding the whole thing.

Not that I understand it yet, but after a few more readings, I think I will.

I appreciate your expertise, gentlemen, and I appreciate your sharing it.

I am not in the least bored by it, even though it has no impact on my life.

I second TheScot's comments; I've found this fascinating. Thanks to MoR and McClef for taking the time to share their knowledge. For those of us who are not as savvy as others, are there any books we could be directed to that deal with this topic?

Laurie

Well MOR we might have more fans than we realised!

MOR is a much greater authority on heraldry than I am so I will leave it to him to recommend reading materials from his main POV. I approach things more historically I would say but it's difficult to reccomend any one book that would cover everything. And with the resources available on the internet it might be better to research individual monarchs - Wiki has some very good short articles with plenty of connecting links on all of them. Perhaps a good starting point might well be the Monarch with whom the US parted company - George III and his numerous progeny, two of whom became monarchs but neither of them producing a legitimate heir or one who survived long enough to inherit the throne. How the long odds of the only daughter of a fourth son became the winner with Queen Victoria who in her turn produced numerous progeny and how the practice of male preference primogeniture denied the throne to her eldest child. It will give a better understanding on how the British Monarchy has survived and adapted and how the British system works.

It's almost like a dynastic soap opera with interesting characters and triumphs and tragedies and you may find some that you would like to read deeper on - there are bound to be some in US libraries, so it need not cost a fortune. One can also pick up things about their love of Scotland and the wearing of kilts from George IV to the current Duke of Rothesay and how they set the fashions that encouraged the restoration of tartan and the kilt.

And I am sure that MOR and myself will be happy to try to answer any questions though we might not always agree on the answers!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I second TheScot's comments; I've found this fascinating. Thanks to MoR and McClef for taking the time to share their knowledge. For those of us who are not as savvy as others, are there any books we could be directed to that deal with this topic?

Laurie

Gosh-- I really don't believe there is any one book that deals authoritatively with this subject matter, although The Nature of Arms by Gayre of Gayre and Nigg (Oliver & Boyd, 1961, out of print) will give one a good idea of the differing concepts of nobiliary heraldic practices throughout Europe from approximately the 12th century until the middle of the 20th century (and not much has changed since then!).

Don Pottinger and Sir Iain Moncreiff of that Ilk were co-conspirators on a delightful wee book titled Blood Royal which, although Anglocentric in its point of view, still gives a pretty good insight to the hierarchy of the titled nobility.

Other than that, it comes down to a lifetime of reading arcane (French word for "boring") books and manuscripts dealing with all aspects of "House Law" and "Peerage Law" and "Noble Law", etc., and putting together all these disparate facts with an eye to discovering the commonality of ideas as to what constitutes "nobility" and, more importantly, how one transcends the threshold of nobility.

As Trefor has already said, we are more than happy to answer the odd question, although we may have slightly differing points of view! Which is a good thing, because without considering different perspectives the pursuit of any knowledge simply would not exist.

[RB51]

Thank you both for your prompt replies; certainly gives me, and I'm sure others, a place from which to start.

Best regards

Laurie

[wildrover]

Who's this "we" you refer to, Brian? I don't wish to be antagonistic here, but this is an international forum owned by a Canadian and devoted to Scottish dress.

That "we" would be us Americans, who, by the struggle of our American forefathers, were excused from having to spend our school days learning the structures of what sounds like an even more complicated system of government than our own . Though I'll admit we do seem to have a bit of what seems like hereditary passing-on of titles here in the States ...

The Nature of Arms by Gayre of Gayre and Nigg (Oliver & Boyd, 1961, out of print)

This is an aside, but I was flipping through Scots Guards vol II and came across a tune entitled "Farewell to Nigg"...and I wondered where they were talking about. There seem to be several places in the British Isles with that name.

Fascinating discussion! It's always good to know how things work outside our own borders. We've a bit of a moat between us and "the old country", you know ...

[ThistleDown]

That "we" would be us Americans, who, by the struggle of our American forefathers, were excused from having to spend our school days learning the structures of what sounds like an even more complicated system of government than our own . Though I'll admit we do seem to have a bit of what seems like hereditary passing-on of titles here in the States ...

Yes, "we" understand the bias, but the system of government in the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other such places to which you refer is not more complicated than that in the US since most of what we are discussing here has nothing much to do with "governing". Other than understanding the very important role the monarch has in their political systems, most school children in any of the above countries really don't know much about nobility. That, of course, is true in all nations including the US, since every system has its "nobles" whether exposed to view or hidden away.

Rex

[macwilkin]

Yes, "we" understand the bias, but the system of government in the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other such places to which you refer is not more complicated than that in the US since most of what we are discussing here has nothing much to do with "governing". Other than understanding the very important role the monarch has in their political systems, most school children in any of the above countries really don't know much about nobility. That, of course, is true in all nations including the US, since every system has its "nobles" whether exposed to view or hidden away.

Rex

Not to mention that our legal and political systems have their roots in the British Isles, save a few places such as Louisiana, that use the old Napoleonic Code.

T.