mourning dress

[davidlpope]

CG would you mind telling us to which clans you are referring? I know of a couple of black and white variations known as "Dress" tartans, but not any officially recognised as "mouring" or "funeral".

Rex,

Here's a quote from James Scarlett from the STA website concerning their dubious origin:

As to 'funeral' tartans, our old friends the Sobieskis concocted a black and white 'Mackfarlan' tartan and so paved the way for black and white versions of other simple patterns. 'Funeral' and 'Mourning' may just be fanciful descriptive names; if they were ever used for the purposes suggested it can only have been as a late affectation.

The Clans Originaux swatchbook of 1880 contains a "Mourning Stewart" tartan. I believe that these were an idea (a bit like Dress Tartans, perhaps?) that really never caught on since kilts are so expensive...


See these links:
http://www.tartansauthority.com/tart.../royal-tartans
http://www.tartansauthority.com/reso...first-casualty

Cordially,

David

[ThistleDown]

Rex,

Here's a quote from James Scarlett from the STA website concerning their dubious origin:

As to 'funeral' tartans, our old friends the Sobieskis concocted a black and white 'Mackfarlan' tartan and so paved the way for black and white versions of other simple patterns. 'Funeral' and 'Mourning' may just be fanciful descriptive names; if they were ever used for the purposes suggested it can only have been as a late affectation.

The Clans Originaux swatchbook of 1880 contains a "Mourning Stewart" tartan. I believe that these were an idea (a bit like Dress Tartans, perhaps?) that really never caught on since kilts are so expensive...


See these links:
http://www.tartansauthority.com/tart.../royal-tartans
http://www.tartansauthority.com/reso...first-casualty

Cordially,

David

Thank you, David. Jamie referred to "funeral" tartans in a couple of his other writings, but I never asked him which tartans he was referring to. Macfarlane was apparently one of them and you give a Stewart as another. I know there are no tartans in the Wilson's swatch book at Moy that could be described as funeral. Can the OP or others provide us with more names?

[Semiomniscient]

Here's a good pic of what morning dress (i.e. formal daywear) should look like:



Though it would look even better with a dressier sporran, like this:
>images removed<

It's not morning dress, but mourning dress. The two wouldn't necessarily have to be all that different in style, but this is funeral attire that the OP is seeking advice on.

[davidlpope]

Thank you, David. Jamie referred to "funeral" tartans in a couple of his other writings, but I never asked him which tartans he was referring to. Macfarlane was apparently one of them and you give a Stewart as another. I know there are no tartans in the Wilson's swatch book at Moy that could be described as funeral. Can the OP or others provide us with more names?

A search of the STA website for the term "mourning" turned up only two: Stewart and Menzies. Menzies looks like it may have been a late adoption.

A search on the "House of Tartan" website tartan finder (which allows you to exclude colors that are not in the tartan you are looking for, as well as search for colors that are in the sett) yielded the following tartans that are all black and white. I have omitted those that are clearly newly created fashion tartans.

1126 Stewart Mourning
1229 MacPhee MacFee or MacIvor
1244 Menzies B/W
1245 Scott
1246 Erskine B/W or Ramsay
1247 Stewart Mourning
1250 Ogilvy B/W
1251 MacFarlane B/W or Lendrum
1252 MacPhee (B&W)
1253 Shepherd
1823 Clergy (Logan)
1824 MacLean Black & White
1825 Scott
1826 Scott (Sir Walter Scott)
1828 MacLeod Black & White

I don't know think we can say that these were all designed as "mourning" tartans, but I doubt that their stark black/ white color palettes are purely chance, either...

Cordially,

David

[Cygnus]

Have worn kilts to funerals and never noticed it taking any attention from the deceased. Didn't know one friend had Scottish blood and the family made a big point of thanking me and honoring her for wearing the tartan to her services. Ya just never know.

I meant no offense to those who have worn kilts to funerals - it is most certainly a case-by-case and person-by-person sort of thing. My own family would almost undoubtedly disown me were I to appear at a family funeral in anything but a suitcoat and trousers (this would include the deceased in almost all cases as well). Perhaps having been brought up that way has made me overly cautious.

[davidlpope]

I wonder if the mourning sett of the Stewart tartan would be what we know today as the "black Stewart"?

No. A image of the Mourning Stewart can be found here:

http://www.tartansauthority.com/tart.../royal-tartans

[ThistleDown]

Here's a good pic of what morning dress (i.e. formal daywear) should look like:



Though it would look even better with a dressier sporran, like this:

I'm sorry, KK, but in the Highlands those would not be accepted as "day wear", "morning dress" or "mourning dress". I realise K-A is marketing such as these using those designations, but you will just have to accept that it's a marketing ploy and in real life is just not done.

[Jock Scot]

I do think we all need to be clear of the very different meanings of morning dress and mourning attire.

Again we are heading into the realms of theory and practice here. There may well be actual "mourning tartans", but in six decades of Highland funerals I cannot say that I have ever seen one. Like the pictures of the MacLeod funeral everyone wearing the kilt is wearing what they have got----clan tartans.I would be appalled if someone had a special funeral clan tartan, why have one? What is the matter of your everyday clan tartan? ------Nothing, of course!

As I have said before, the most important thing is the fact that people have attended the funeral and not what they are wearing. However, I do think careful consideration should be given to whether the kilt is suitable attire, particularly outside Scotland, for EVERY funeral. Alright, the pictures show a Highland funeral and quite typically the mourners have turned up with what they have and frankly it matters not whether the sporran is right, the jacket is right, the colour of the wife's nail varnish is right, they are there to pay their respects and anything else is a mere insignificant detail.

Now we do (should) try to dress correctly for the occasion and that is, I suppose, down to years of convention and personal pride, and I am not just talking about kilt attire here, either. Sometimes though, like any soldier will tell you, "sometimes we have to fight with what we have, not what we OUGHT to have" and the same goes with what we wear, kilts or anything else.

[ThistleDown]

A search of the STA website for the term "mourning" turned up only two: Stewart and Menzies. Menzies looks like it may have been a late adoption.

A search on the "House of Tartan" website tartan finder (which allows you to exclude colors that are not in the tartan you are looking for, as well as search for colors that are in the sett) yielded the following tartans that are all black and white. I have omitted those that are clearly newly created fashion tartans.

1126 Stewart Mourning
1229 MacPhee MacFee or MacIvor
1244 Menzies B/W
1245 Scott
1246 Erskine B/W or Ramsay
1247 Stewart Mourning
1250 Ogilvy B/W
1251 MacFarlane B/W or Lendrum
1252 MacPhee (B&W)
1253 Shepherd
1823 Clergy (Logan)
1824 MacLean Black & White
1825 Scott
1826 Scott (Sir Walter Scott)
1828 MacLeod Black & White

I don't know think we can say that these were all designed as "mourning" tartans, but I doubt that their stark black/ white color palettes are purely chance, either...

Cordially,

David

Have you noticed the repetition, David? 1126 and 1247; 1229 and 1252; 1245, 1825 and 1826. Probably never woven and in reality a relative's honouring through design. And, of course, neither the Clergy nor the Shepherd tartans were/are "clan" tartans.

I don't think we have any knowledge of a "clan" tartan being especially designed and woven in advance of a funeral in the 19C or before. Neither the economies of the day, nor the time between death and funeral service would have permitted the design and the manufacturing of a special tartan. Is that something somebody wishes to discuss?

Having said that, there are a few more things that must be clarified. In the US it is traditional (customary) to wear black to a funeral or memorial service. Men dress in black business suits and women in black dresses with black stockings, black shoes, and black hats or other head-covering in the church and at the grave-side.

That is as it is in England, too.

But that is not as it is in the Highlands.

[Jock Scot]

I meant no offense to those who have worn kilts to funerals - it is most certainly a case-by-case and person-by-person sort of thing. My own family would almost undoubtedly disown me were I to appear at a family funeral in anything but a suitcoat and trousers (this would include the deceased in almost all cases as well). Perhaps having been brought up that way has made me overly cautious.

I think you are quite right to be cautious in your circumstance. Funerals are a time of distress and raw feelings and to wear something out of the ordinary, as far as your family, any family for that matter, is concerned, could well cause unnecessary upset.

I am sorry, but I have to say this to you all. I don't know if you have Scots connections to fall back on, or kilt wearing is just a new thing that you have taken to, but a funeral is the one place not to show off at. There really are times when wearing the kilt should take second place to the occasion and wearing the kilt to a funeral may not be the most sensitive thing to do in some circumstances.