Boy Scout kilts

[EagleJCS]

(1) kilts are expensive, and the wearing of the kilt would be beyond the economic reach of some; thus, this might, in some way exclude, or be a stumbling block, to these boys participating in Scouting activities;

Hear, hear. The cost of the Official Uniform BSA as it is today is a stumbling block for many already (including members of my troop) - which is why many units or even districts/councils have a "uniform library" or "experienced uniform" lending system of some sort for families to give the unit the uniform parts their sons have outgrown for other boys to make use of free of charge (or for a nominal/refundable deposit). Even the Scottish Scouts I spoke to at the World Jamboree in 2007 often have a hard time scraping together the funds necessary to get their kilts - they often go to the hire shops and get whatever cast-offs they can find. Some of them don't even know which tartan they're getting - and it's likely not going to be the Scout Association tartan. Sometimes, they just hire the kilt only when they're absolutely needed for a Scout activity (e.g. parades, ceremonies, etc.).

If the kilt were to become a uniform option for the BSA, then it would likely push Scouting into an "elite" activity that many we're trying to reach (with the urban 'Scoutreach' programs, 'Soccer and Scouting', etc.) couldn't afford to participate in. Units, in order to remain "uniform", would have to decide whether the entire unit would be wearing the kilt. (Remember, the idea behind the uniform is to level the playing field and reduce the differences between the boys, not raise it.) In some areas, Scouting is already considered an 'elite' program just because of the somewhat specialized equipment needed to participate in most outdoor activities.

Unless some of the uniform kilt advocates out there are willing to develop a uniform fund exclusively for the purpose of outfitting BSA Scouts in kilts, I don't really see this going forward through National.

I also agree with MoR on this one - there just isn't the cultural connection necessary for creating a demand for the kilt as a uniform option.

[claidheamdanns]

My Boy Scout kilt, from StillwaterKilts.com cost less than my Scout uniform. It was $28.95

[claidheamdanns]

It should probably be pointed out that neither Robert the Bruce nor Pope John XXII wore kilts either (and for that matter neither did Baden-Powell or Frederick Russell Burnham) and as far as is known neither one of them were ever Boy Scouts. That said, I find it was unlikely that the Pope would have sided with Edward II when presented with the Declaration of Arbroath.

It has been repeatedly said in this thread that Baden-Powell did not wear a kilt, or "show us the evidence," etc. I would like to point out firstly, to the best of my knowledge, he was not Scottish, so why would we even expect him to have worn a kilt. But his close friend and comrade in starting Scouting (MacLaren), and who became the first secretary of the movement, was, and undoubtedly wore a kilt. For more information on this, see the Clan MacLaren website.

That having been said, there IS a print of Baden-Powell in a kilt, so let's quash that line of arguement.

Here it is:

[Standard]

Where did you find the picture, and what is the documentation saying this is Baden-Powell? From the photos I've seen of him I'm not sure I'm convinced that this is infact BP. To me at least this doesn't look like the man in any of the old photos that I've seen of BP. Chase posted this picture of Baden-Powell which will serve as a reference.

[be da veva]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltman
It's good to see the legend returning.

Again...what legend.

He meant Hamish. Should've wrote ''the Legend'', would've been less confusing.

[claidheamdanns]

Fair enough ... here's the reference. Remember that this is a picture of Baden-Powell in his younger days. But it is, in fact, the man himself: Lt. Gen. Robert Baden-Powell.

[Chas]

It has been repeatedly said in this thread that Baden-Powell did not wear a kilt, or "show us the evidence," etc. I would like to point out firstly, to the best of my knowledge, he was not Scottish, so why would we even expect him to have worn a kilt. But his close friend and comrade in starting Scouting (MacLaren), and who became the first secretary of the movement, was, and undoubtedly wore a kilt. For more information on this, see the Clan MacLaren website.

That having been said, there IS a print of Baden-Powell in a kilt, so let's quash that line of arguement.

Here it is:

This is NOT Baden-Powell. Just look at his face, did he suddenly get younger and grow hair thirty years later? As far as I can see his medals are wrong. The time-line just doesn't make sense; the picture is attributed to the 19th century but B-P did not become a Lieutenant-General till 1907 (he was still a Lieutenant-Colonel in 1901).

B-P himself said that he had never worn a kilt because "he didn't have the legs for it". (His words - His quote.)

B-P came from an age when men where taught to dress in the right clothes for the right occasion, according to their station in life. He was also a high ranking army officer, so he knew about dress regulations and the importance of wearing the right clothes. In his army career, he never served with any Scottish or Highland regiment - so why would he wear the uniform of a different regiment?

When B-P was alive, the only people who wore the kilt were Scotsmen (from the highlands), servicemen or actors.

B-P was not a Scotsman, he did not serve in a Scottish regiment and he wasn't an actor.

IF B-P had worn a kilt, it would have been seen as an insult to the Scots. Men did not then (nor do they today) wear a uniform of a different regiment as a token of honour or respect.

That uniform, at that time, would have cost many hundreds, if not thousands, of pounds sterling (the gold you see, was real gold wire). B-P was not a 'rich' man. That uniform would have cost the best part of a years salary. Besides his army uniforms that he would have to buy himself, he was also a Knight Commander of the Victorian Order. Another whole set of uniforms and robes. I do not think that it is reasonable that B-P would have bought a Levee Dress uniform and only wear it once for a photograph. There is no record of him wearing it for any other occasion.

The truth of the matter is that the photograph is mis-attributed. B-P never wore a kilt and no amount of wishing and hoping will make it so. This is like the Fountain of Youth or Eldorado or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Rational thought says that they don't exist, but that doesn't stop thousands searching.

Regards

Chas

[Chas]

I would add two extra little points:

1. There are two types of ear lobe; attached and unattached. B-P had unattached, the other man has attached earlobes.
2. B-P did not have a dimple in his chin, the other man has a dimple.

Sorry, but this is genetic; it is the way he was born. Unless someone is suggesting that B-P underwent cosmetic surgery that was not invented at that time and he magically lost all the scars, then there is no way these two people are the same man.

Regards

Chas

[Kilt-alope]

I wear a kilt with my BSA uniform on some occasions. OA events with appropriate themes (highland games, Scotland vs England etc) and at summer camp when I have to run the scout leader golf tournament, all in good fun for a good time. The last time I ran the tournament the council scout executive asked if I was a scout from Scotland, I explained it was for the golf game and I was from his council, BSA, we had a good conversation and a great laugh.
I fully intend to wear my Maclaren tartan kilt to my wood badge beading (92-64 antelope) other than that I have an OD green kilt I made for a themed OA event with a costume contest (second place)
I know that a kilt is not part of the uniform, which is why I only wear it at what I can argue are appropriate times. If you want my scouting experience or qualifications just ask. I have several uniform adaptations for other circumstances and they all have their place but most of the time I try to look like I stepped out of the scout shop catalog.
If there were an official BSA uniform kilt, I would wear it happily, if I can talk my venture crew into adopting one, same thing. But right now the book does say pants/shorts, or nowadays pants that have legs that zip off into shorts

[SlackerDrummer]

Fair enough ... here's the reference. Remember that this is a picture of Baden-Powell in his younger days. But it is, in fact, the man himself: Lt. Gen. Robert Baden-Powell.

The reference has now corrected their information, based on a comment by the National Scout Museum. The portrait is of Field Marshall Sir George White.