Would you ever wear a feather in your cap, particularly in the U.S.?

[English Bloke]

I've stayed out of the poll as none of the answers really fit my thinking. Can I ask a question though?

Are we taking wearing of feathers with "Traditional" Highland Dress at Traditional Highland Events or just any ol' time with the Kilt?

No disrespect intended but as I read all this most informative stuff, I can't get the picture out of my head of the Tartan Army, massed, Kilted and dozens sporting 18 inch pheasant feathers in their glengarries. I've seen this lots of times.


not my picture but borrowed it to illustrate the point.

Surely if the Scots have no respect for Scottish tradition while supporting their National team or SFL club, our dabate here becomes somewhat academic.


Rt Hon James Ramsay 17th Earl of Dalhousie (with feathers in hat), Chief of Clan Ramsay.

I assume therefore we are talking; guest of honour at the Games, attendance to Balls or lunch with the Queen rather than 16 pints and a "get it up yez yae Inglish Bassaz". I guess the supporter chaps are wearing them for the simple pleasure and are not trying to pass themselves off as something they are not. No harm in that is there?

As an aside, I did once see a Kilted Gent riding a step-through Vespa with open face helmet and a long pheasant tail feather secured to the side. It was fluttering away behind him and he looked absolutely fantastic. I was driving at the time so unfortunately no pictures but you'll agree, a tremendous mental image... (yeah I know, no pictures it didn't happen... right you are then...)

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

not my picture but borrowed it to illustrate the point.


Rt Hon James Ramsay 17th Earl of Dalhousie (with feathers in hat), Chief of Clan Ramsay.

I assume therefore we are talking; guest of honour at the Games, attendance to Balls or lunch with the Queen rather than 16 pints and a "get it up yez yae Inglish Bassaz". I guess the supporter chaps are wearing them for the simple pleasure and are not trying to pass themselves off as something they are not. No harm in that is there?

You are, of course, absolutely correct. "Big Feathers" are traditionally only worn on certain occasions and the duine uasail tend to be punctilious about adhering to those traditions. Crazy feathers are just that-- I doubt anyone would confuse the lads in the tartan army with James Dalhousie...

Interestingly, if you look closely at Dalhousie you will see that he's displaying his crest in an ordinary clansman's strap and buckle rather than the expected circlet (surmounted by an earl's coronet) to which he's entitled. Nothing "wrong" with this, although a duine uasail usually displays his personal crest in a circlet.

[davidlpope]

not my picture but borrowed it to illustrate the point.

At least the MacMillan of the bunch is "plume-less"!

David

[davidlpope]

To further muddy the waters:

What is the convention when 1) foreign armigers (whose arms were not granted by Lyon) find themselves in Scotland or 2) any armiger (whether bearing Scottish arms or otherwise) is outwith Scotland?

At the recent Washington D.C. St. Andrew's Society dinner, Lyon made it very clear that his jurisdiction does not extend beyond Scotland. Are we really relying, then, on conventions that are shaped by Scots heraldic law, but in most cases not technically subject to it? Put more concretely, would it be appropriate for a Spanish armiger in THCD attending a highland games in Florida to wear a tall feather in his bonnet?

My conclusion from the discussion up to this point:

Since the US has no authoritative arms-granting/regulating body (and, thus, all arms borne in America are either foreign grants or assumed), the enforcement of "proper" heraldic conventions is dependent on good taste and respect. Yikes!

David

[Tartan Shortbread Jock]

I like wearing feathors in my cap, nothing too epic.

[ThistleDown]

To further muddy the waters:

What is the convention when 1) foreign armigers (whose arms were not granted by Lyon) find themselves in Scotland or 2) any armiger (whether bearing Scottish arms or otherwise) is outwith Scotland?

At the recent Washington D.C. St. Andrew's Society dinner, Lyon made it very clear that his jurisdiction does not extend beyond Scotland. Are we really relying, then, on conventions that are shaped by Scots heraldic law, but in most cases not technically subject to it? Put more concretely, would it be appropriate for a Spanish armiger in THCD attending a highland games in Florida to wear a tall feather in his bonnet?

My conclusion from the discussion up to this point:

Since the US has no authoritative arms-granting/regulating body (and, thus, all arms borne in America are either foreign grants or assumed), the enforcement of "proper" heraldic conventions is dependent on good taste and respect. Yikes!

David

I don't know what Lyon said at the dinner, David, but he has said to the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs that he will act on complaints by them of misuse if that misuse is within his jurisdiction, and that his jurisdiction does not extend beyond the borders of Scotland.

With reference to your example of the Spanish armiger we must realise that we are speaking of a Scottish system here, not a Spanish, Canadian, South African or English. All of those have arms-granting colleges but the arms granted by them are not automatically converted by the Lyon Court or otherwise recognised in Scotland.

Your final paragraph: yes, sadly, that is the way of it. The key word is "respect".

[Riverkilt]

Humans have been decorating themselves with feathers since we crawled out of the bogs and into caves. I understand the various laws and rules and regulations - sort of.

But I better understand the urge to feel jaunty and stick a feather in one's cap. Hard to put that urge down for someone else's laws and rules.

Maybe the only "safe" place to wear a feather would be deep in the woods where no one else could see - but then again - that's where you're most likely to meet a game warden.

Around here Ravens are prolific - they are also known as "flying rats." you learn to buy white cars so their droppings don't show and not to leave anything edible - even dog food - in the back of your pick up truck.

But raven's do sport an elegant black feather. Hopefully, ravens aren't on one of them legal lists.....might just sport a raven feather today.

Anyone remember the opening scenes of Dances With Wolves where the Confederate officer taking bead on the Kevin Costner character was wearing a most jaunty hawk feather in his hat? That "look" to me is the spirt of why men stick a feather in their cap.

Please, lets not outlaw JAUNTY......please....

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

To further muddy the waters:

What is the convention when 1) foreign armigers (whose arms were not granted by Lyon) find themselves in Scotland or 2) any armiger (whether bearing Scottish arms or otherwise) is outwith Scotland?

Foreign armigers visiting Scotland are not required to conform to Scottish heraldic practice unless they take up residency (which would include owing a holiday home) or open a business that will display their arms. In most places outside of Scotland little or no notice (official or otherwise) is taken of personal heraldry.

At the recent Washington D.C. St. Andrew's Society dinner, Lyon made it very clear that his jurisdiction does not extend beyond Scotland. Are we really relying, then, on conventions that are shaped by Scots heraldic law, but in most cases not technically subject to it? Put more concretely, would it be appropriate for a Spanish armiger in THCD attending a highland games in Florida to wear a tall feather in his bonnet?

If the Spanish armiger is of Scottish ancestry and wearing the tartan of the clan to which he is allied by surname, then yes, as an armiger he would be considered a duine uasail within his clan and thus accorded the right to feathers. However, if Sr. Gomez showed up wearing Childers Universal Tartan (or that of a recognized clan) then he would have no entitlement to feathers as he would not be considered a duine uasail of a clan, so, in this instance it would not be appropriate for him to wear tall feathers.

My conclusion from the discussion up to this point:

Since the US has no authoritative arms-granting/regulating body (and, thus, all arms borne in America are either foreign grants or assumed), the enforcement of "proper" heraldic conventions is dependent on good taste and respect. Yikes! David

That's it in a nut shell--- in the framework of Scottish cultural traditions one either respects those traditions, or one doesn't. Simple as that.

[davidlpope]

Scott,

Thanks! You really should write a book!

David

[Mike_Oettle]

Thank you, MacMillan, for summing it all up so well.
What you have put forward is what was on my mind, but you have clarified matters no end.
Regards,
Mike