"This kilt is too small ..." she said

[xman]

You may have measured too tight on both to start with.

This certainly happened.

What are the measurements you used originally for the kilt, and what are the splits that you used between the apron and the pleats?

waist - 17.5" - split - apron 9", pleats 8.5"
hips - 19.5" - 9.5" apron, 10" pleats

What measurements do you get now when you measure him loosely at the hips over pants and only lightly snug at the waist over a shirt, in inches?

Now;
19.5" waist
21" hips
I should say that I've taken Steve's advice and put two fingers in the tape. What I meant by my last post was that this STILL seems inadequate.

If you lay the kilt out without stretching, what do the pleats measure at the hips and waist, in inches? How many inches is it across the apron at the hips? What about at the waist?

Now that's tough because I've now got 22 pleats including those that will be hidden, 20 with full deep and reverse pleats. Pleats are five and a half 'plus' at the hips and four and a half 'plus' at the waist. I'm going to go with either eighteen or twenty pleats for now and hide the rest. The apron is currently 10.375(3/8) at at the waist and 10.875(7/8) at the hips.

[Edit] I'm starting to feel like I should just work in metric. We're kind of stuck between the two systems here in Canuckistan.

[Barb T]

Before
waist - 17.5" - split - apron 9", pleats 8.5"
hips - 19.5" - 9.5" apron, 10" pleats

Now
19.5" waist; 21" hips
I should say that I've taken Steve's advice and put two fingers in the tape. What I meant by my last post was that this STILL seems inadequate.

Now that's tough because I've now got 22 pleats including those that will be hidden, 20 with full deep and reverse pleats. Pleats are five and a half 'plus' at the hips and four and a half 'plus' at the waist. I'm going to go with either eighteen or twenty pleats for now and hide the rest. The apron is currently 10.375(3/8) at at the waist and 10.875(7/8) at the hips.

So I'm still trying to figure out why accurate measurements would still seem inadequate, and I'm still having a tough time figuring out how big the kilt actually is. It's not clear to me what you mean by having 22 pleats, some of which are hidden. Are the extra 2 pleats the deep pleat and the inverted pleat? If so, they don't matter in terms of sizing, so you shouldn't count them in your measurements. And I don't know what you mean by "doing 18 or 20 pleats and hiding the rest". Can you show a picture??

Anyway, here's what I need in order to help you:

1) If you lay out the kilt, without stretching it, and measure from the right hand edge of the underapron where it is stitched to meet the pleats, across the pleats, to the left edge of the apron where it is stitched to meet the pleats (i.e., not measuring either the deep pleat or the inverted pleat, which don't add anything to the circumference of the kilt), how many inches across is that (without stretching) at the hips? What about at the waist?

2) If you measure from the left edge of the apron where it meets the pleats across the apron to the apron edge chalk mark, how many inches is that at the hips? What about at the waist?

3) If you add those to #s together, they need to equal 20.5" at the waist and 22" at the hips in order for the kilt is to fit perfectly at his current size (i.e., be neither too big nor too small). This is an inch more than his actual measurements (at his current size), because you add an extra inch to the right apron edge to make sure that the fringe covers the underapron.

Can you tell me what the numbers are from 1 and 2 above, and I can see if I can help you? I can't figure out the measurements you've given me, because 5 1/2" plus at the hips across the pleats can't possibly be right. Even if you split the hip measurement evenly (21" divided by 2), the pleats would have to be 10 1/2" across at the hips, and the apron would have to be 11 1/2" across at the hips. If you did an uneven split, the pleats at the hips would need 11" and the apron 11". And that would be laid out to the current measurements with nothing to spare.

I'm starting to feel like I should just work in metric. We're kind of stuck between the two systems here in Canuckistan.

I honestly don't think this is the problem. It shouldn't matter whether you measure in ells or smoots or potrzebies.

[xman]

It's not clear to me what you mean by having 22 pleats, some of which are hidden. Are the extra 2 pleats the deep pleat and the inverted pleat? If so, they don't matter in terms of sizing, so you shouldn't count them in your measurements. And I don't know what you mean by "doing 18 or 20 pleats and hiding the rest".

Sorry, I'm not being clear enough. By 'doing' 18 or 20 pleats I mean keeping that many and returning the others to the deep and reverse pleats or hiding them behind said pleats.

Can you show a picture??

If you've only read the first post then you might not know that I raided the originally generous deep pleat and reverse pleat for more length before adding material to the centre back at the join, but these elements are still somewhat proportional because the kilt is so small. I've also separated the join and added more material.
Here's the back view:

The middle back pleats are a bit bunchy because this is the newly added section without a selvedge so it is currently the only part that is hemmed to match the rest of the material which has a selvedge.

Here's the top view showing the current relationship between the regular pleat depth and the deep and reverse pleats on either end.


Here's the current buttonhole location which will be much closer to the apron when I absorb/hide the first pleat or two back into/behind the deep pleat.


And for kicks, here's a close up of my very first pleats stitched. It's short pleated to a previous set point rather than the next. It could be seen as inverted because the pleat appear upside down in relation to its previous, or they're pleated to the cheat as Rocky might say. Some have called it pleating to the reverse sett. Short, Inverted, Cheat. I'm calling it SIC pleating for now.

5 1/2" plus at the hips across the pleats can't possibly be right.

Again I apologise for my lack of clarity. I meant that the pleats are each 5½+/8ths" wide at the hips and 4½+/8ths" wide at the waist so ...
1) Using twenty pleats;
the waist pleats in a perfect world should be 11.875", but actually measures about 13"
the hip pleats in a perfect world should be 14.375", but actually measures about 15"
Using just 18 of those;
the waist pleats in a perfect world should be 10.6875", but actually measures about 11 3/4"
the hip pleats in a perfect world should be 12.9375", but actually measures about 13 1/4"

2) The apron is currently 10.375(3/8) at at the waist and 10.875(7/8) at the hips.

3) Although the math should work out that way, there's still a little fudging that needs to be done. I figure that can work out to putting the straps on a little creatively and making alterations as he grows. Having the model here for regular check is good for a final finish, but I'm kind of reverse engineering at this point, holding the kilt up to him and measuring the results later.

I honestly don't think this is the problem. It shouldn't matter whether you measure in ells or smoots or potrzebies.

Oh I know that's apples and oranges, but I think I'd be more comfortable dealing in decimals is all.

[CaseyB]

On the upside it looks like your pleats are nice and straight and well lined up so once you get this all worked out it should be a nice kilt!

[Barb T]

Well, it actually sounds like it should be plenty big. Let us know how it eventually turns out.

And there's no reason why you can't use decimal inches or even mms - whatever makes the most sense to you, provided that you have a ruler that allows you to measure accurately enough. A ruler divided into 10ths of an inch isn't accurate enough, and most people don't have a ruler divided into 100ths (they're hard to find, but I actually have a nice stainless steel one that I bought for drafting back in the day...). A mm scale would be closer to the right level of detail - at 25.4 mm/inch, that's pretty close to 1/32 of an inch, which is the level of precision that you need for pleating.

It sounds ultimately like the issue arose from not having the right measurements to begin with. If you have the right measurements (and that would be measured loosely over pants at the hips and only very slightly snug over a shirt at the waist), and you add 1/2" to both the waist and hip measurements in case someone grows a taitch, there's no reason that a kilt shouldn't fit fine provided that the pleats are stitched carefully enough that the length across the kilt back is what it actually needs to be (1/16 too small on every pleat, for example, will make a kilt that is an inch and a half too small around).

[xman]

Thanks, Barb. I was waiting to hear back from you before I proceeded, but we're on the same page now so I'm going to charge ahead and see where I end up next.

And thanks Casey. Upon very close inspection some minor faults are visible, but I'm calling it a victory so far and my next will be even better, provided I can get the measurements right the first time.

[Barb T]

I agree with Casey that you've done a fab job matching the stripes in your pleats! This is really tough to do the first time you make a kilt. Well done!

And frankly, measurements are the next biggest bugaboo for first time kiltmakers. So, you've doing fine. I'm glad you've had the patience to persist and the personal standards to make it right!!

[xman]

All I need now is a pressing block and the straps and this one is done.