Irish vs Scottish Relations

[macwilkin]

I suppose if I had worn my Rangers garb with the kilt I might have been killed outright.

T.

[Madadh]

Wear what you want. The Irish and Scots have been cross breeding and fighting (both as siblings and best friends) for centuries. As for religious divisions, we left and fought a revolution so they could keep those problems in Europe.

[macwilkin]

Wear what you want. The Irish and Scots have been cross breeding and fighting (both as siblings and best friends) for centuries. As for religious divisions, we left and fought a revolution so they could keep those problems in Europe.

Well...not exactly. Those religious problems you mentioned were part of the reason for the Revolution, especially among the Scots-Irish.

"Make no mistake about it...Cousin America has run off with a [Scots-Irish] Presbyterian Parson, and there's nothing we can do about it." -- attributed to a MP during the Revolution.

We won't even go into the Nativist movement in the 19th century or the St. Patrick's Day riots in NYC and Philly. Gangs of New York does a somewhat decent job with showing that the Revolution did not remove us from Europe's problems.



T.

[Lallans]

Sounds like a wonderful current anthropology/sociology/political field test. Kilt up, go, and note what happens.

You do that- I'd rather do something safer like kicking lions to see if they're hungry.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I would advise against wearing your kilt for the following reasons:

This thread is NOT intended to start any political or racial arguments.

While this is your intent here, It can be (and inevitably will be) a hot topic button with some, at the event. Further, without at least some knowledge of the religio-political background, it is virtually impossible to make an informed decision.

This thread is intended to seek practical advice, not rehash the political arguments between Catholic and Protestant inhabitants of Northern Ireland or Ireland. That being said, here is my question for you all:

Am I OK wearing a Scottish clan kilt to an Irish pipe band ball, or will I invoke the anger and ire of those who experienced the troubles?

Historically the "Troubles" is a euphemism for the civil war that took place immediately after Irish independence. To put this into perspective, Michael Collins, the Irish patriot who was killed by an IRA bullet in 1922, would be 120 years old if alive today. It is therefore highly doubtful that anyone attending the event will have personally experienced "the troubles".

I am a new member of a pipe band. The band is Irish, has an Irish name, is sponsored by and meets at the Ancient Order of Hibernians.

The Ancient Order of Hibernians is, sadly, a sectarian organization, founded in 1836 in New York, which chooses to "define" Irish as synonymous with being Roman Catholic. This means that nearly half of all Irish-Americans are excluded from membership in the AOH due to their religious beliefs.

Many of the membership are actually Irish citizens, and many of them experienced the troubles personally.

The AOH, along with NorAid, financially supported the IRA, the Provisional IRA, Real IRA, the Irish National Liberation Army, etc. throughout the 1960's, 70s, 80s 90's, and continue to do so today. These militant organizations are, if one bothers to read their political manefestos, marxist-socialist. Likewise, all of these militant organizations are illegal in the Republic, and membership is a criminal offense.

Question # 1: Given the role of Scottish protestant settlers in Northern Ireland, and of Scottish troops of the British Army in Northern Ireland, do I risk causing anger if I wear my Scottish clan kilt to the ball?

Since the AOH is a sectarian organization diametrically opposed to Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom, the short answer is "yes", you do risk causing anger if you wear your Scottish kilt to the ball.

Question(s) # 2: What attitudes do the Irish have regarding Scottish people? Favorable, unfavorable? What insights do our Irish members have on this? What insights do our Scottish members have on this? Conversely, how do the Scottish feel toward the Irish?[/U]

As long as you leave politics and religion out of it... there's no problem. But remember, you're not talking about the Scots and the Irish. You're talking about Americans who have a far from perfect understanding of Ireland, Irish history, Irish politics, or the desire of many Irish (regardless of religion) to remain British.

So, given all of the above, I'd leave the kilt at home, rather than risk offending someone, no matter how ignorant they may be.

Yours Aye,

[Jock Scot]

When all said and done it is a judgement call that only you can make, but M o R really does make some very valid observations particularly when you add alcohol into the equation AND the world renowned short fuse that many Celts have. On reflection I think M o R is quite right, leave the kilt at home.

[Lallans]

Wearing a kilt in and of itself is practiced by the Irish here. If you think of kilt-wearing as appearing as a full-dress Scot with all the accoutrements like a PC and Glengarry, etc, that might be seen in an unfavourable light, yes. But if you wear it in a folksy manner, I can't seriously imagine anyone being offended. I mean, outside of the haunts of the Ancient Order of Hibernians and their ilk.

Mind you, I'm the dummy who did the Ulster FC shirt thing....

[BobsYourUncle]

My answers in B O L D

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would advise against wearing your kilt for the following reasons:


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobsYourUncle
This thread is NOT intended to start any political or racial arguments.

While this is your intent here, It can be (and inevitably will be) a hot topic button with some, at the event. Further, without at least some knowledge of the religio-political background, it is virtually impossible to make an informed decision.
This thread is intended to seek practical advice, not rehash the political arguments between Catholic and Protestant inhabitants of Northern Ireland or Ireland. That being said, here is my question for you all:

Am I OK wearing a Scottish clan kilt to an Irish pipe band ball, or will I invoke the anger and ire of those who experienced the troubles?

Historically the "Troubles" is a euphemism for the civil war that took place immediately after Irish independence. To put this into perspective, Michael Collins, the Irish patriot who was killed by an IRA bullet in 1922, would be 120 years old if alive today. It is therefore highly doubtful that anyone attending the event will have personally experienced "the troubles".
I am a new member of a pipe band. The band is Irish, has an Irish name, is sponsored by and meets at the Ancient Order of Hibernians.

The Ancient Order of Hibernians is, sadly, a sectarian organization, founded in 1836 in New York, which chooses to "define" Irish as synonymous with being Roman Catholic. This means that nearly half of all Irish-Americans are excluded from membership in the AOH due to their religious beliefs.

Many of the membership are actually Irish citizens, and many of them experienced the troubles personally.

The AOH, along with NorAid, financially supported the IRA, the Provisional IRA, Real IRA, the Irish National Liberation Army, etc. throughout the 1960's, 70s, 80s 90's, and continue to do so today. These militant organizations are, if one bothers to read their political manefestos, marxist-socialist. Likewise, all of these militant organizations are illegal in the Republic, and membership is a criminal offense.
Question # 1: Given the role of Scottish protestant settlers in Northern Ireland, and of Scottish troops of the British Army in Northern Ireland, do I risk causing anger if I wear my Scottish clan kilt to the ball?

Since the AOH is a sectarian organization diametrically opposed to Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom, the short answer is "yes", you do risk causing anger if you wear your Scottish kilt to the ball.
Question(s) # 2: What attitudes do the Irish have regarding Scottish people? Favorable, unfavorable? What insights do our Irish members have on this? What insights do our Scottish members have on this? Conversely, how do the Scottish feel toward the Irish?[/U]

As long as you leave politics and religion out of it... there's no problem. But remember, you're not talking about the Scots and the Irish. You're talking about Americans who have a far from perfect understanding of Ireland, Irish history, Irish politics, or the desire of many Irish (regardless of religion) to remain British.
So, given all of the above, I'd leave the kilt at home, rather than risk offending someone, no matter how ignorant they may be.

Yours Aye,

----------------------

Thank you all, your comments are exactly the kind of discussion in which I was interested. MOR, you have once again provided the specific insight and perspective for which I had hoped, particularly the context concerning the AOH.

To clarify, in using the term "troubles" I did not intend to refer to the Irish civil war of Michael Collins' era, but the ongoing fighting which has extended into modern times.

Some responders may not have focused on the fact that the group does not include only Irish Americans, but also includes many Irish from Ireland, born and raised there, and who experienced the sectarian strife first hand. It was my realization that feelings may run hot and deep, and my desire to avoid providing an outlet for them by wearing a Scottish kilt in their midst without knowing what that symbol may evoke for them.

I will say that the musicians in the band are some of the nicest people I have every met, and the band practice nights have a real family feel, as there are young children in the instructional program, and the ages of the people involved in the band range from middle school [10-14] to folks in old age. It has been the warm, friendly feeling in the group, and the welcome given that impressed me and made me want to continue learning there. I have never heard anything or seen any behavior at the hall that gave me any pause. I would not want my thread to give the wrong impression about the group, or reflect poorly on what has been a most positive experience.

That being said, the band members are not the only ones who use the hall, or who will be present at the ball. I suppose that I learned the value of investigating such issues through hard experience, in various different contexts.

While I am a frequent kilt wearer, and am proud of my families' connection to Scotland, I do not feel compelled to wear my kilts absolutely everywhere, or to flaunt them in the faces of those who may be angered by seeing me wear them. I will not censor myself or refrain from wearing a kilt out of some general fear of adverse reaction, but where there is a set of preexisting historical issues, I will consider the choice of kilt or no a little more carefully. MOR's information about the AOH is a revelation to me, not having investigated the organization, and his conclusion seems very sound, as several others have noted.

Thank you all again!

[denmcdough]

OK, I have a great idea....buy yourself an inexpensive Stillwater, Irish National kilt and impress the hell out of them. I'm sure you'll score points. LOL!

Oh, and for the record, the AoH was founded in Ireland. Yes, the USA has it's sister organization, also. And, for those in doubt, research WHY the AoH came about.

To many persons' amazement, the people associated with it (AoH), the ones I know of, at least, are great folks and do not necessarily support political agendas in NI.

[Zardoz]

I guess it depends on ones personal prejudices if the AOH is a church club or some kind of terrorist front.
I don't think it's an appropriate discussion here in any event.

Same with talking people out of wearing their kilts !