Bonnets on or off?

[Tobus]

I believe it was considered common courtesy once, nothing more nothing less.

This is an important point. Common courtesy is not about "rules"; it's about being courteous to those around you, per the expectations of the culture in which you happen to find yourself. And if you're in a position where offense might be given, common courtesy dictates doing the least offensive thing possible.

With that in mind, today's society is such that people aren't offended at hats being worn indoors (unless one lives in ultra-high society, of course). For us regular folk who are just trying to be polite while we do the things necessary to live our lives, given today's standards, and in a scenario such as I described in my previous post, I would think that the least offensive thing to do would be to keep a hat on one's head rather than take it off. There's going to be more offense taken at unkempt hat-hair than at the hat itself.

So while that may make me less than a proper gentleman, I take umbrage at the declaration that it makes me a rube or an oaf.

On the subject of removing one's(male) headwear and I don't know if it is common place, but removing one's headwear whilst in a graveyard is very much a custom here.

That is the tradition here too, at least in the circles with which I'm associated. A cemetery is like a church in terms of removing one's hat and acting reverent. Most people around here take off their hats when a funeral procession passes by on the street, too.

[Bugbear]

...These days my hat-wearing creedo comes from the words of Walt Whitman - "...take off your hat to no man, nor to any number of men."

I believe that is from the 1855 Preface to Leaves of Grass; I'm a Whitman fan. Here is some of the surrounding context:

This is what you shall do: Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms
to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, have patience
and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men, go freely with powerful uneducated persons
and with the young and with the mothers of families, read these leaves in the open air every season of every year of your life, re-examine all you have
been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul; and your very flesh shall be a great poem and have the richest fluency
not only in its words but in the silent lines of its lips and face and between the lashes of your eyes and in every motion and joint of your body...

That is copied from Bartleby.com at this web page:
http://www.bartleby.com/39/45.html

[Irish Jack O'Brian]

...take off your hat to nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men...

Yes, thank you, Bugbear! I couldn't find the exact quote off hand. This piece of Whitman prose is one of my favorite pieces in the English language.

Jack

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

A gentleman knows that the way he behaves at home is not necessarily the way he should behave in public.

So...

Hats Off:
Indoors, when a gentleman sits down, he always removes his hat.
When the national anthem is played a gentleman always removes his hat. (Veterans may leave their hats on and render a hand salute if they so choose.)
A gentleman always removes his hat when entering a house of worship, unless it would be considered discourteous to do so.

Hats On:
He may leave his hat on when seated in a public waiting area (ie: airport terminal, etc.);
He may leave it on when seated outdoors;
He may leave his hat on at McDonald's while waiting for his "to go" order...

[Bugbear]

There is a difference between humbling oneself by removing one's headgear so as to not stand out in the company of one's fellows and tipping one's cap to something or someone in deference to a perceived superiority.

As I am not that familiar with Whitman, I wouldn't know if he was against both. ...

I've never taken that passage as meaning literally don't remove your hat...; I'm not finding anything written about that specific line in any of my literature books on Whitman. That section almost seems sarcastic or humorous in some slight way, but the line always reminded me of the early Quakers: George Fox, et al.

*
edit: I am removing the link to the Whitman piece on Burns to make a new thread; it has nothing to do with removing one's hat.

[ThistleDown]

A gentleman knows that the way he behaves at home is not necessarily the way he should behave in public.

So...

Hats Off:
Indoors, when a gentleman sits down, he always removes his hat.
When the national anthem is played a gentleman always removes his hat. (Veterans may leave their hats on and render a hand salute if they so choose.)
A gentleman always removes his hat when entering a house of worship, unless it would be considered discourteous to do so.

Hats On:
He may leave his hat on when seated in a public waiting area (ie: airport terminal, etc.);
He may leave it on when seated outdoors;
He may leave his hat on at McDonald's while waiting for his "to go" order...

I won't quibble with you Rathdown, but I have an addition "Off" -- in my home -- and an additional "On" -- in his own home.

But I think this thread was about some myth that in Scotland bonnets are worn in church. The simple answer is "yes, when that is the requirement of the place of worship", and "no, in all other cases". Similarly, shoes are removed when that is a requirement and kept on when it is not.

58 posts

Rex

[Downunder Kilt]

58 posts

Rex

Yes thinking the same thing

[Irish Jack O'Brian]

A gentleman knows that the way he behaves at home is not necessarily the way he should behave in public.

So...

Hats Off:
Indoors, when a gentleman sits down, he always removes his hat.
When the national anthem is played a gentleman always removes his hat. (Veterans may leave their hats on and render a hand salute if they so choose.)
A gentleman always removes his hat when entering a house of worship, unless it would be considered discourteous to do so.

Hats On:
He may leave his hat on when seated in a public waiting area (ie: airport terminal, etc.);
He may leave it on when seated outdoors;
He may leave his hat on at McDonald's while waiting for his "to go" order...

Yes, 58 posts! Though it is fascinating sociology and has caused me to think about my own actions.

Well, I'll add a little more if I might:

Mister MacMillan
I think yours is a good partial list of does and don’ts; however, I again argue for “almost always” in certain instances.

For example, I have a young friend who lost all of his hair a few years ago due to an illness. He is embarrassed by his baldness and always keeps his fedora on even in indoor social situations. Once at a party, the hostess, who did not know him, asked if she could take his hat, and he said No, that he would prefer to keep it on. Not another word was said. I do not consider him less a gentleman for this, but I do consider that the hostess was a real lady.

Also, for myself, I sometimes find myself in indoor situations that do not lend themselves to the ”always take it off” dictum. Crowded bars, certain work situations, and Cowboy functions are all times when I feel most comfortable keeping my chapeau on indoors. I do not feel ungentlemanly.

There are a few hat courtesies that I would add:
ALWAYS take your hat off when meeting a woman for the first time, hold it at your chest until introductions are over, then you may put it back on. I usually ‘tip’ my hat after the initial meeting (although if the woman is older I take it off every time we meet.)
NEVER try on another man’s hat without permission
Also, I generally tip my hat when passing another man; when wearing a bonnet or ball cap, I give a ‘knuckle’ in the old fashion. (This may just be a West Texanism.)

In these days, I think that an awareness of oneself and the people around the situation should dictate the proper hat etiquette, rather than falling back on hidebound patrician judgmentalism.

[BoldHighlander]

NEVER try on another man’s hat without permission.

"Never touch another man's hat!"



:mrgreen:

[Derek Conley]

What blurs the lines and doesn't help matters is when certain publications ("GQ" comes to mind) publish excellent sartorial guidelines, yet state that it's currently perfectly acceptable to wear a fedora (yes, they were discussing fedoras) inside.

Now, at 35, I certainly don't agree with it... but others of my age range, and younger, who may read such a thing will then, at times, decide it's acceptable in modern society.