wearing other family tartan rather than your own

[macwilkin]

But most of our name tartans aren't like that. Most began life as anonymous patterns and were assigned to clans by the weavers or absconded by the clans themselves as the Royal Visit approached. Many others were designed by a pair of mental Englishmen and were bestowed upon various clans as part of a deliberate hoax. I myself don't regard such tartans as genuine clan tartans, given their origin and original purpose.

If the Chief of the Clan recognizes them, then they are "genuine", regardless of their origins.

T.

[BoldHighlander]

If the Chief of the Clan recognizes them, then they are "genuine", regardless of their origins.

T.

***
Indeed! My thoughts exactly.

[Zardoz]

Many others were designed by a pair of mental Englishmen and were bestowed upon various clans as part of a deliberate hoax. I myself don't regard such tartans as genuine clan tartans, given their origin and original purpose.

I wouldn't class the Allen brothers as 'mental' in any way, I think you have to have your wits about you to run a long con like they did. The marks are still lining up 150 years later!

[macwilkin]

I wouldn't class the Allen brothers as 'mental' in any way, I think you have to have your wits about you to run a long con like they did. The marks are still lining up 150 years later!

Matt has an excellent article about the Hay-Allens and their tartans. His arguement is that many of their tartans were "new" tartans, which aren't necessarily "fraudulent" themselves -- the story behind them was the fraud perpetuated by the brothers. Many of the tartans themselves are now recognized by Chiefs, which really makes the whole claim that they are not "genuine" a moot one.

T.

[Mike_Oettle]

Todd wrote (and Terry agreed): “If the Chief of the Clan recognizes them, then they are ‘genuine’, regardless of their origins.”

My sentiment, too. And, for those who might be interested, I received a letter this afternoon, with a stamp bearing the Queen’s head and posted from Colinsburgh, Fife, which read, in part:

“Thank you for your letter . . . in which you . . . ask . . . my permission for you to wear the Lindsay tartan. . . . it seems to me that anyone who is seriously proud of his Lindsay – or Fotheringham – ancestry should be able to wear the Lindsay tartan. In any case I am happy to give my permission.”

It is signed “Robin Crawford” – Robin clearly being a nickname and Crawford his primary title, since he is Robert Lindsay, Earl of Crawford and Balcarres.
So it’s official: even though I could have worn the tartan without permission, such permission has been asked (following proper form) and granted.
I am thrilled!
Regards,
Mike

[Downunder Kilt]

Todd wrote (and Terry agreed): “If the Chief of the Clan recognizes them, then they are ‘genuine’, regardless of their origins.”

My sentiment, too. And, for those who might be interested, I received a letter this afternoon, with a stamp bearing the Queen’s head and posted from Colinsburgh, Fife, which read, in part:

“Thank you for your letter . . . in which you . . . ask . . . my permission for you to wear the Lindsay tartan. . . . it seems to me that anyone who is seriously proud of his Lindsay – or Fotheringham – ancestry should be able to wear the Lindsay tartan. In any case I am happy to give my permission.”

It is signed “Robin Crawford” – Robin clearly being a nickname and Crawford his primary title, since he is Robert Lindsay, Earl of Crawford and Balcarres.
So it’s official: even though I could have worn the tartan without permission, such permission has been asked (following proper form) and granted.
I am thrilled!
Regards,
Mike

Great to see Mike, I like the way you went about it and I like the fact that you now have a letter from the Chief that will undoubtedly go into your own family history and vault. Cheers

[macwilkin]

Where does the right to restrict it's use come from? And I was not referring to tartans that were designed by chiefs of clan members. I'm pretty much talking about pre-existing tartans.

Think of it this way: the Duke of Argyll does NOT recognise the "Campbell of Argyll" tartan as a bona fide Campbell tartan, yet many people the world over wear it. No restriction per se, but no recognition. It's the Duke's perogative as Chief to do so. The so-called "Black MacMillian" tartan is a similar tartan with no recognition from the Chief.

T.

[macwilkin]

As a further example, here is an article by Sir Malcolm MacGregor which explains nicely which tartans are bona fide and the reasons why:

http://www.clangregor.org/article-ourtartans.html

T.

[Moski]

Think of it this way: the Duke of Argyll does NOT recognise the "Campbell of Argyll" tartan as a bona fide Campbell tartan, yet many people the world over wear it. No restriction per se, but no recognition. It's the Duke's perogative as Chief to do so. The so-called "Black MacMillian" tartan is a similar tartan with no recognition from the Chief.

T.

They have that right not to recognise those tartans. I'm not arguing that, it is their perogative to do so. My question pertains to those that are recognised and therefore assumed by some to be restriced by lack of permittion by the chief, unless, the person has some other right or grant to wear the tartan.

At what point did these previously public domain (or equivalent), or mill/weaver owned/produced tartans become become the property of the person of the Chief.

[macwilkin]

They have that right not to recognise those tartans. I'm not arguing that, it is their perogative to do so. My question pertains to those that are recognised and therefore assumed by some to be restriced by lack of permittion by the chief, unless, the person has some other right or grant to wear the tartan.

At what point did these previously public domain (or equivalent), or mill/weaver owned/produced tartans become become the property of the person of the Chief.

And you're assuming wrong. You are free to wear the Campbell of Argyll all you want, but the fact remains that the Duke of Argyll doesn't recognize it as a bona fide Campbell tartan. I don't ever recall any of the Dukes using kilted clansmen to forcibly stop a weaver at bayonet or broadsword point from weaving it.

T.