Getting a COA registered

[WVHighlander]

Ladies and Gents,

I have been looking at many different options on getting a Coat of Arms registered. I have a more than keen interested in having it registered with the Lord Lyon but I have looked at the many different US Heraldic institutions, all private of course, such as the Augustan Society, US College, etc. I actually have the application for the Augustan Society.

My question is this. Will the Lord Lyon give a new grant, not matriculation of arms (stressed here), to someone of Scottish decent? I have tried to ask this question a couple of times to people associated with Scottish COA but they seem to glaze over my question and go into a litany of matriculating arms.

I have looked at the website and it simply says that they AND I QUOTE"
Foreign Countries. Arms are not generally granted to non-British citizens". Of course I read not generally and do not read not ever.

So if someone has some info or knows about this or can give me a point of contact I would be appreciative.

[Cygnus]

I'll take a stab at this question, though I hope MacMillan of Rathdown or one of the other experts chimes in to confirm or correct my answer.

As far as I understand it, the answer is no. The "generally" given in that statement from the pamphlet is to cover extenuating circumstances in which somebody who wasn't a Scottish national was granted arms for an extraordinary reason; I imagine such an event is rare in the extreme.

The only way for someone who is not a Scottish citizen to register arms with the Office of the Lord Lyon is to find an ancestor or living relative who lived/lives in Scotland and who is armigerous. If such a person can't be found, you can petition a grant for your deceased Scottish ancestor and, if you're not the direct heir of those arms, petition a cadet matriculation of those arms (with suitable difference).

That doesn't mean that you don't have any say in the appearance of the arms. From everything I've heard, Lord Lyon is very flexible when it comes to designing arms for new grants to both the living and deceased; though there are strict rules and guidelines that must be followed and the arms should appear similar enough to the chiefly arms as to be easily recognized as belonging to someone of the same name (a good example of this can be found in the panels for the Hunter arms shown on the Caber Dancer website).

I hope I haven't just given you the same lecture that you've come to expect!

[EagleJCS]

The only way for someone who is not a Scottish citizen to register arms with the Office of the Lord Lyon is to find an ancestor or living relative who lived/lives in Scotland and who is armigerous. If such a person can't be found, you can petition a grant for your deceased Scottish ancestor (emphasis mine - JCS) and, if you're not the direct heir of those arms, petition a cadet matriculation of those arms (with suitable difference).

That's my understanding as well, after speaking with members of the SSA.

If you have to, you can go all the way back to ancestors who lived in the American Colonies prior to September 3, 1783 (the date the Treaty of Paris - which officially ended the Revolutionary War - was signed). The presumption is then that the person was a subject of the Crown, and therefore (barring any legal issues to the contrary) eligible for the grant of a coat of arms.

That's what I'll have to do, once I can determine which one of three individuals of the same name I'm descended from. I'll also have to apply for a cadet matriculation, since not all of my paternal line were first-born sons (all of the first-borns in question did survive to adulthood).

You need to fully document, to the best of your ability, your lineage and the marital status of each set of parents back to the Scottish/British subject. Try to get a certified copy of the birth, death and/or marriage certificates. (Marital status has a bearing on whether a 'bordure compony' - alternating silver and blue, or argent and azure - is merited. Under modern usage, the bordure compony indicates an illegitimate offspring.)

[WVHighlander]

Funny enough that I have that already. He was a Revolutionary War Veteran and I did the lineage for my Sons of the American Revolution.

The problem is tracing him back to Scotland. His father came here from Ireland and from what I have seen so far it appears his ggg-father came from Scotland. So I wonder if they will require me to trace that as well.

The other issue is cadet matriculation. I am the second son of my father, my father is the second son, and I am sure there are more in there between him and me. The additional hang up I have is essentially both of those knuckle heads (father and brother) would be eligible for the CoA. Which goes to the back and forth thought between registration in the states or have it matriculated.

I have thought about writing the Lord Lyon Court and presenting the situation to see what their response would be. However, before doing that I wanted to get some feedback on here from people who had experienced it.

[Cygnus]

Your father and elder brother's claim to arms is really a non-issue, since any arms you matriculate will be differenced. If you were the first son, then you'd have to get your father on board, but as it is, they would have to matriculate their arms separately. Before you petition a grant for an ancestor, you can ask your father/brother(s)/uncles/cousins that might be interested in their own cadet matriculations to pitch-in on the costs for the ancestor's grant of arms, since that would be required of all of you.

And you don't need to get your lineage back to Scotland if you have an ancestor with a Scottish name that lived in the original 13 colonies prior to 1783 (as EagleJCS pointed out). That is currently a sufficient tie to Scotland for Lyon to grant him arms.

[SlackerDrummer]

Nothing new, but this is from the American Heraldry Society website:

The Lord Lyon King of Arms is empowered under Scottish law to grant arms to “virtuous and well-deserving” persons. Lord Lyon interprets his jurisdiction to include anyone domiciled in Scotland, as well as any person domiciled in the United Kingdom or in an overseas realm of the Commonwealth who is not of English, Welsh, or Irish descent. By virtue of his power to grant arms posthumously upon petition of a deceased person’s heirs, Lyon can also grant arms to anyone who can prove descent in the direct male line from someone living within a previous Lyon’s jurisdiction. This includes Americans of Scottish ancestry whose male-line ancestors were in the 13 colonies prior to 1783. There are certain other circumstances in which a grant to someone neither of Scottish birth nor domiciled in Scotland may be eligible, but they are rare and would be up to the judgment of Lord Lyon himself. As of 1 April 2010, the fee for a new grant of personal arms with shield and crest is £2,081, which includes an illuminated vellum certificate (letters patent). As indicated above, Americans are normally granted arms in memory of an ancestor; this route usually requires that the arms also be matriculated for the applicant’s own use for an additional fee. Armorial bearings are protected by law in Scotland and it is illegal to use arms there unless they have been granted by Lord Lyon or matriculated in Lyon Court.

If you are a member of a chivalric order of which HM the Queen is the head (i.e. the Most Venerable Order of St. John of Jerusalem), the College of Arms will grant honorary arms regardless of whether or not you meet the descendent requirements. It is possible, though I do not know, that Lyon will do the same. Keep in mind that all grants from the College are honorary for non-British citizens, while all grants from Lyon are substantive regardless of citizenship so the College may tow a different line in that regard.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The other issue is cadet matriculation. I am the second son of my father, my father is the second son, and I am sure there are more in there between him and me. The additional hang up I have is essentially both of those knuckle heads (father and brother) would be eligible for the CoA. Which goes to the back and forth thought between registration in the states or have it matriculated.

In your situation the Lyon will devise arms representing the colonial ancestor, and then matriculate them down to the petitioner. So, assuming for a minute that you have the same last name as your colonial ancestor, and can provide the necessary proofs of marriage and birth, here's what happens:

For the sake of discussion let's say the arms devised by Lyon to represent your ancestor are: argent a chevron gules within a bordure sable. Based on these arms he may determine that those that might be devised for your grandfather (as an indeterminate cadet of the original ancestor) would be: argent a chevron gules within a bordure nebuly sable. From this he might deduce that the appropriate cadency for the second son (your father) would be: argent a chevron gules within a bordure nebuly per pale sable and or. Having reached this point Lyon might be prepared to grant those arms to you.

As far as your father and uncle are concerned, unless they petition for arms, they have no entitlement to a portion of the matriculation of the original ancestor, nor do their other children. Were it I, I would have my grandfather (if living) petition arms and then seek matriculation based on his grant. Failing that I would have the petition go forward in my father's name.

Substantive arms -- those backed by the authority of a sovereign state -- are always preferable to self-assumed arms, no matter what private body has recorded them.

[WVHighlander]

Substantive arms are the preferred. The other issue I have with matriculation is a private family matter, but lets just say that if I did it through my father or grandfather they wouldn't be eligble.

What I have decided to do is write Lord Lyon and lay out my case for him. If anyone has any advice on writing to the office of Lord Lyon or Lord Lyon himself I would appreciate it greatly.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Substantive arms are the preferred. The other issue I have with matriculation is a private family matter, but lets just say that if I did it through my father or grandfather they wouldn't be eligble.

What I have decided to do is write Lord Lyon and lay out my case for him. If anyone has any advice on writing to the office of Lord Lyon or Lord Lyon himself I would appreciate it greatly.

Send me a PM if you would like assistance in this matter.

[SlackerDrummer]

Substantive arms -- those backed by the authority of a sovereign state -- are always preferable to self-assumed arms, no matter what private body has recorded them.

According to whom?