What's Modern Kilt Wear> ...or...what's this subforum really about?

[xman]

Don't bring God into this, we don't even know what tartan he wears!

At least we know The Devil wears Campbell.

[Kevin80222]

As I consider myself a “modern” kilter, I think that the definition of the modern kilt forum has been somewhat lost in this thread:

…The place for discussion about the ways the kilt is being worn today. (Basically from the mid 1980's to today)…

First, I should state the reasons why I consider myself to be a modern kilt-wearer:
• I live in Denver, Colorado, which much like the rest of the Western United States has a much more relaxed definition dress, both formal and casual
• I am 6’6” tall and 210 pounds. I have a 38” inseam. My body type dictates that I adjust the way in which I wear my kilt in order for both the kilt and I to look best
• I am a firm believer that ANY man can wear the kilt, regardless of age, race, creed, color, orientation, ancestry, size, or shape
• Styles evolve with time; Sheriffmuir jackets and fly-plaid may just have gone the way of the hoop skirt and loin cloth and yes, great grand-dad may have worn his kilt one way but he also didn’t have rubber-soled shoes or Hanes boxer briefs…
• Sometimes nothing looks more bad-*** than a Utilikilt and a t-shirt
• I love color and nothing catches my eye like a beautiful tartan: as such I’ll by regional tartans, universal tartans, county tartans, fashion tartans and I should not feel poorly because I don’t have a clan tartan
• I’m Irish – I keep hearing I really shouldn’t be wearing one but I like them way too much not to

I think that modern kilt wear is more than just the kilts modern manufactures are making, but it is also the fit of and the accessories worn with traditional kilts today as well as the activities and lifestyles of the men who have embraced them. I am now the proud owner of 14 kilts, which range from beautiful 8-yard tanks to solid cargo kilts, and I own almost equal numbers of modern and traditional kilts. It is not because I own modern kilts that I consider myself a modern kilter, but because each kilt is worn by me as a modern man with modern accessories in a more modern and flattering cut for someone of my physique. As a modern man I accept that clothes will always evolve and as such I think a traditional kilt can be worn in this day and age, look appropriate, and yet be worn in a different manner than that of a 16th-19th century Scotsman.

I wear my kilt as an alternative (albeit better) replacement for pants, but in this day and age I will not accessorize it with diced hose, a Glengarry or balmoral, or a lace jabot. I will however wear a traditional tank with boots at a casual event, pair the same tank with plain hose and ghillies, an oxford shirt and v-neck sweater for an informal dinner, and then attend an evening event wearing the same tank with a black conversion jacket and tie as the “Denver” equivalent of a suit.

Next day I’ll throw on my cargo kilt to make that week-end run to Home Depot …

When I first started to wear kilts I spent countless hours going through threads and pictures on XMTS to find what looked right and was considered in good taste, knowing full well that in the end I would have to define my style when “kilted” - the same way I’ve had to formulate my style all through my life past the age of 10-12, when I first had a say in what I was going to wear.

As I combed through years of threads on these forums I learned invaluable lessons that have led me to formulate my style. I’ve always prided myself in paying attention to the way I dress, and I believe looking your best is a reflection of pride, assurance, and character. However, when lurking for hours on these threads I quickly wanted to isolate myself from traditionalist views based on several comments made continually– posts that would state a kilt was an inch too long or an inch two low and “what a shame” that was. A member posting a picture of himself at an important event might be met with comments like “that looks great, too bad you wore white piper’s hose” or the yearly thread of “It’s St. Patrick’s time, should those people at the parade really even be wearing a kilt?” It was after hundreds of white hose and flat-cap bashings I decided that the kilt is an article of clothing – I wear it the way it looks good on me and damned be everyone else…

All in all, to me modern kilting is wearing the kilt in everyday circumstances, be it a modern or traditional kilt, and having it look good without looking like you are on your way to a Highlands reenactment.

[CMcG]

<snip> The question is really ...what is this sub-forum is really all about? and possibly a related corollary What would we LIKE this sub-forum to be about?

Let's look at the idea embodied by the word "modern." In the academic circles that I run in, this can refer to two different, but related, things.

In the first case, the modern is an intellectual and artistic movement originating in late 19th century Western culture called MODERNISM. One of the basic tenets is the rejection of tradition in favour of new approaches to art, culture, and society. This resulted in some very interesting leaps forward, as well some total failures. Interestingly, it was rapid evolution -- not total breaks with the past -- that were most successful.

The second type of modern is a paradigm called MODERNITY. This is used to refer to the modern era, which is intrinsically linked with industrialization and technology. In this case, modernity is a time period but it is also a level of development. Modernity may appear to be less ideological than modernism, but it can also be used in teleological and value laden thinking.

To bring this back to the OP's question, I believe this sub-forum is about modernism and the kilt. In a nutshell, it is about kilt wear that is a departure from tradition. A black and white example is Utilikilt, boots, tee shirt = modern vs. a tank, sporran, tweed, hose, etc = traditional. Between those two poles, however, there is still a lot of grey area...

A machine sewn acrylic or P/V tartan kilt worn with an Argyll jacket, sporran, hose, flashes, etc may be a good example of the impact of modernity on kilt manufacturing. It is not really modernist, though, because it still looks more or less traditional. On the other hand, a tank worn with combat boots and a leather jacket is enough of a break with tradition that it could be called modern. I don't think I've ever seen anyone wear a Utilikilt with traditional day wear accessories, but that would probably be modern too.

People usually have a whole outfit, not just a kilt, so I think this sub-forum should accommodate modernism in kilt wear more generally. If either a kilt or an outfit would make Jock Scot raise a bemused and tolerant eyebrow and say "kids these days!" it is probably modern. I would like this sub-forum to be inclusive but there is a limit as well. While it is ostensibly correct to say that everything occurring now is modern, that is tautological and I think it misses the point.

As for who should post in this forum, I would like it to be open to all the Ladies and Gentlemen of Xmarks. If someone doesn't have anything nice to say, let them at least have constructive criticism. On this sub-forum though, it is insufficient to say "that just isn't how it's done" or "that is wrong because it isn't traditional." In order for someone to give good criticism, they should first evaluate the assumptions upon which they have based their opinion. Attacks and ridicule remain contrary to the spirit of this forum and also in contravention of our rules. Trolls are not welcome.

Modernism is about the new, that means breaking rules, and people need not be thin skinned if someone doesn't like their outfit. Sometimes, disapproval from the establishment is exactly the effect that a modernist is going for! Even the most traditional Xmarker could contribute to a modern kilt discussion, perhaps with legitimate and open minded curiosity about something they would never wear.

[ThistleDown]

Let's look at the idea embodied by the word "modern." In the academic circles that I run in, this can refer to two different, but related, things.

In the first case, the modern is an intellectual and artistic movement originating in late 19th century Western culture called MODERNISM. One of the basic tenets is the rejection of tradition in favour of new approaches to art, culture, and society. This resulted in some very interesting leaps forward, as well some total failures. Interestingly, it was rapid evolution -- not total breaks with the past -- that were most successful.

The second type of modern is a paradigm called MODERNITY. This is used to refer to the modern era, which is intrinsically linked with industrialization and technology. In this case, modernity is a time period but it is also a level of development. Modernity may appear to be less ideological than modernism, but it can also be used in teleological and value laden thinking.

To bring this back to the OP's question, I believe this sub-forum is about modernism and the kilt. In a nutshell, it is about kilt wear that is a departure from tradition. A black and white example is Utilikilt, boots, tee shirt = modern vs. a tank, sporran, tweed, hose, etc = traditional. Between those two poles, however, there is still a lot of grey area...

A machine sewn acrylic or P/V tartan kilt worn with an Argyll jacket, sporran, hose, flashes, etc may be a good example of the impact of modernity on kilt manufacturing. It is not really modernist, though, because it still looks more or less traditional. On the other hand, a tank worn with combat boots and a leather jacket is enough of a break with tradition that it could be called modern. I don't think I've ever seen anyone wear a Utilikilt with traditional day wear accessories, but that would probably be modern too.

People usually have a whole outfit, not just a kilt, so I think this sub-forum should accommodate modernism in kilt wear more generally. If either a kilt or an outfit would make Jock Scot raise a bemused and tolerant eyebrow and say "kids these days!" it is probably modern. I would like this sub-forum to be inclusive but there is a limit as well. While it is ostensibly correct to say that everything occurring now is modern, that is tautological and I think it misses the point.

As for who should post in this forum, I would like it to be open to all the Ladies and Gentlemen of Xmarks. If someone doesn't have anything nice to say, let them at least have constructive criticism. On this sub-forum though, it is insufficient to say "that just isn't how it's done" or "that is wrong because it isn't traditional." In order for someone to give good criticism, they should first evaluate the assumptions upon which they have based their opinion. Attacks and ridicule remain contrary to the spirit of this forum and also in contravention of our rules. Trolls are not welcome.

Modernism is about the new, that means breaking rules, and people need not be thin skinned if someone doesn't like their outfit. Sometimes, disapproval from the establishment is exactly the effect that a modernist is going for! Even the most traditional Xmarker could contribute to a modern kilt discussion, perhaps with legitimate and open minded curiosity about something they would never wear.

Clap, clap, clap. Good words from good thinking.

[KiltShot]

Just some quick thoughts:

I usually select the threads I will read by the topic not by browsing any particular sub-forum.
I like to see kiltwear that is a departure from tradition.
Photos are always a thread enhancer.
Everyday kiltwear examples visually dispel the idea that the kilt is a costume to be taken out only on certain occasions.
I support anything that will keep kilt wearing alive and evolving. There are so many creative things that can be done with the kilt, and the young at heart are the ones who will do it.
I think that this is the correct sub-forum for discussing and showing these ideas.

[Zardoz]

First off; CMcG, that was one outstanding well thought out post! Agree wholeheartedly.


Now

I just can't understand why those who profess no interest in modern kilt wear persist in posting to threads in the modern kilt wear section.

It seems that we have a cadre of those who wish this forum to be soley traditional and who have found a way to deny others the right to speak. By posting they know full well that there are some who will rise to the bait and the result is another closed thread.

Steve, I'm with you about this sort of thing going on, I've been noticing 'certain parties' trying to control threads in that way for a while. But I don't think Jock or Todd are part of that problem.

like some folks have noted, I think honestly some of the trouble in this subforum comes from the "mix" of kilt types and styles it is meant to encompass. Perhaps the "Traditional" subforum shouldn't cut off at 1980, and this section should morph into a "Contemporary" ie; R-Kilts, Utilikilts, Amerikilts, X-Kilts, Alt.kilt, etc.. MUG forum.

[Grae]

Deleted

[CDNSushi]

I liked Alan's first (related) post better -- the first 4 pages of it, anyway... After that it just wasn't much fun to read.

I own tartan kilts and a Utilikilt. I actually started wearing kilts with my Utilikilt, and though I wear it a lot less frequently than my others, it doesn't mean I don't like or appreciate it. That's probably why I also end up contributing far less to the "modern" subforum than I do elsewhere. It's nothing personal, but simple numbers. Eventually I DO plan on buying another non-tartan, modern kilt, and when I do, I'm sure I'll have much more to talk about.n

So with that, I guess I'm neither one of the "modern" guys nor one of the "traditional" guys... I'm one of the kilt-wearing guys who just can't grok this "us" versus "them" mentality that seems to permeate threads like this. As a matter of principle I don't think ANYONE should necessarily stay out of ANY forum... The guiding principle should always be not only one of respect no matter where you are, but also that of deference to the nature of the discussion. If someone asks: "What color stiletto heels should I wear with this kilt?" It behooves people who are going to participate in the discussion to provide possible answers to the question, but without resorting to: "Quite frankly, I don't think stiletto heels go well at all with ANY kilt." Because that's where the fight will start.

At that point, I can pretty much tell you what will happen next. You're going to get:

5 posters agreeing that stiletto heels should never be worn
2 posters counter-arguing that they should.
1 poster show pix of his cousin's friend wearing stiletto heels
1 poster saying: "I know your cousin."
1 poster saying: "My cousin is a you-know-what."
5 posts agreeing and posting annecdotes about their "you-know-what" cousins.
1 post trying to bring the topic back on-track by posting an Oxford definition of "stiletto heel" and thereby raising the ire of the original 7 posters
A whole lot of name-calling, mud-slinging, and "you didn't read my post carefully" followed by "how could you even say that" and so on... Inevitably the thread gets reported..... and...
1 post from a a moderator saying the thread has been moved to the cooling-off forum awaiting deliberations.

In any case, I think that a PART of the problem is that people don't always realize where they are... Take for instance the "favorite sporran" thread in the Modern section. Alan pointed out that a number of people posted very traditional pix and applications... When you first navigate to the site, the MAIN site (that lists all the latest threads in ALL forums) comes up. I suspect that people quite often read the TITLE of the thread and not necessarily the forum it's in... "Oooh. Neat. a thread about your favorite sporran. I got something to contribute...." Without even realizing that the CONTEXT was within the realm of modern, rather than traditional sporrans... It may not even be done maliciously -- but rather be a result of people following a trail of breadcrumbs into a thread, and not checking to see which category it was in fact posted in.

[CMcG]

<snip>
Photos are always a thread enhancer.

Ok!

Here's me in my Utilikilt. I doubt anyone would question that this is a modern look.


And here are some images from the web of other clearly modern kilts:







More to come...

[CMcG]

Then there are traditional looking kilts worn in a modern way.

Here's me at a Saint Pat's parade, wearing steel toe Doc Martens and a loud Celtics jacket by Starter:




And some more images from the web: