TRADITION: let's (re)define it.

[tripleblessed]

Here's how: Instead of basing the demarcation upon a particular time period, base the demarcation on whether or not the kilt is worn in accordance with the traditional practices of Highland Scotland.

There. That's the fulcrum on which this discussion tips, and rightly so. Let us be adults and understand that life does not have many areas of neat, tidy, well-delineated lines. Highland tradition is broader than many are comfortable with being on the table here. Many think the problem is that it's too constrictive, while ignoring history. Some on the forum have been accused of wearing "rose-coloured spectacles" in their desire to "become Scots". And some may be. I am not a Scot. I think I had that covered by my junior year in college, or maybe even a little sooner. When I was ten and my Great Books group was discussing Locke and Hume, it might have occurred to me that they weren't from around here. Or even near each other. And one was a Scot. Ergo, I am not a Scot. But I do read, and I know that Scots
were practical people. They didn't all have a lot of money. They didn't all live in Victorian times. They didn't all have enormous closets. What they had, they were glad to have, and when they went out the door they wore it with pride. and enjoyment. THAT, my friends, is the tradition. To say it is only how a small group could afford to do it in a short period of history is to don an enormous pair of rose-coloured spectacles made of polarizing glass that
eliminates any folk you don't consider were of the proper class to be included in the tradition.
WE ALL KNOW HOW WELL-TO-DO HIGHLAND SCOTS PUT IT TOGETHER. When we want to look good IN THAT STYLE, the traditional sub-forum is our resource. And a treasure it is. And
also trust me that we all will choose that, at least some of the time, money being available.
Not being Scots we will also do it in ways relevant to our lives wherever we live. I have seen kilts with cowboy boots. With scrunched-down socks. Worn too long. With the wrong sporran. My eyes still work. My heart did not stop. Highland Scots saw abnormal wear throughout the evolution of the kilt, and we're still wearing it. It will likely outlive us all.

Traditional is how it's been done over time and is still being done now. It will survive

[CMcG]

but I still think that people seeing "Traditional Kilt Wear (in accordance with the traditional practices of Highland Scotland)" right next to "Modern Kilt Wear" will wonder whether the brand-new, modernly-made, but otherwise traditional clothing and the related questions should be posted. <snip>

There is bound to be grey area, regardless of whether the definition of the sub-forums stays the same or not.

For example, let us take 4 yard box pleated kilts. This style of kilt was basically non-existent by the time of Edward VII and was revived in America by Bob Martin in 1980s. It doesn't fit the current definition of the Traditional Highland Dress sub-forum, remains little known in the Scotland, and has therefor previously been deemed historical (as opposed to traditional) by some of the Auld Crabbits. Nonetheless, one of our most ardent traditionalists says:

Who wants to make the case that the four yard box pleated kilt is not traditional because it was not worn or seen for years?

On the other hand, our forum owner posted the following picture of himself in the Modern Kilt Wear section. This looks rather traditional to me, especially if we compare it to something like a Utilikilt or a punk tartan kilt. But his "contemporary" kilt has a bunch of modern details that aren't visible in the picture, including machine sewing, stabilizers in the waistband, and side slash pockets.

In response to this picture, the former forum manager (Panache) said:
"I think there is a difference between traditional looking kilts that are mass produced, machine sewn, and/or of synthetic materials and a true “Modern/Contemporary” kilt. These traditional looking kilts follow the same fashion guidelines as a hand sewn wool tartan one."

[davidlpope]

On the other hand, our forum owner posted the following picture of himself in the Modern Kilt Wear section. This looks rather traditional to me, especially if we compare it to something like a Utilikilt or a punk tartan kilt.

As it does to me. Additionally, it's a very nice-looking tartan, made into a very nice-looking kilt, paired with nice-looking accessories.

My understanding, though, and the key to the distinction, if I have it correct, is that Steve doesn't feel compelled to "comply" with any sort of "prescribed rules" when wearing his kilt in this manner. He may be informed by traditional practices, but he isn't constrained by these practices. He dresses in the way he thinks best. Hence, he chose to post in the Modern Kilt wear sub-forum. Easy enough.

I recently started a thread about my new Barb Tewksbury kilt. Because I choose to wear my kilt in accordance with what I understand to be traditional norms, I chose to post it in the Traditional Highland Dress sub-forum. Easy enough.

That's what makes XMarks such a great place. You get to make the call...

[M. A. C. Newsome]

He may be informed by traditional practices, but he isn't constrained by these practices. He dresses in the way he thinks best.

Which, to me, is the definition of traditional Highland dress. One hundred years ago, someone included this phrase in his book entitled The Kilt & How to Wear It:

"The Highland dress is essentially a 'free' dress -- that is to say, a man's taste and circumstances must alone be permitted to decide when and where and how he should wear it... I presume to dictate to no man what he shall eat or drink or wherewithal he shall be clothed."

I'll repeat it again for emphasis: this phrase was written within a book that endeavored to tell the reader how to wear the kilt. So it is not as if the author (Stuart Ruaidri Erskine) was some kind of tartan anarchist advocating for an abandonment of all tradition and custom when it came to Highland attire.

But he did realize that a very important aspect of the Highland dress tradition is that the kilt is clothing and not costume, and as with any other form of clothing, it is up to the man and his own tastes and fancies to decide how he's going to dress.

When I attire myself, I follow the exact same line of thinking as I quoted from David's post. I inform myself by the Highland tradition, but I don't feel bound by it in any constrictive sense. This means that any time you see me depart from that tradition, it is always done as an informed choice and for a specific reason.

This is quite different from the kilt wearer who departs from tradition out of ignorance (or perhaps some sense of rebellion).

[davidlpope]

When I attire myself, I follow the exact same line of thinking as I quoted from David's post. I inform myself by the Highland tradition, but I don't feel bound by it in any constrictive sense. This means that any time you see me depart from that tradition, it is always done as an informed choice and for a specific reason.

Very true. One great example that I'd point out is your tweed doublet. It's a very snazzy jacket and I like to see you wearing it. Your knowledge of highland dress is much greater than mine, so I know that you are informed when you choose something a bit out of the ordinary.

When it came to deciding on a evening doublet, though, I chose velvet (but might have chosen barathea or tartan just as easily) instead of tweed because (in my mind, based on my understanding of what is appropriate for traditional highland dress) I don't think that tweed is a proper fabric for evening clothes.

[DWFII]

When I attire myself, I follow the exact same line of thinking as I quoted from David's post. I inform myself by the Highland tradition, but I don't feel bound by it in any constrictive sense. This means that any time you see me depart from that tradition, it is always done as an informed choice and for a specific reason.

This is quite different from the kilt wearer who departs from tradition out of ignorance (or perhaps some sense of rebellion).

But this either misses the whole point or it confirms mine. The sub-forum is just that--a discussion forum about Traditional and Classic Highland Apparel and Style. If "Traditional" were dropped and the forum were about "Classic" Highland Dress it would be a horse of a different colour.

This sub-forum is a touchstone. When we depart from Traditional we can no longer call it strictly Traditional. We've departed from Traditional.

We all do this. I wear flat caps and Ike jackets and I don't give a damn. But I'm not gonna tell you it's Traditional to do so. Or even Classic. Or even Highland. Or, if pressed, that my Scottish brethren wouldn't be sniggering behind my back.

Once you water down this sub-forum to the point that it's all indeterminate and warm and fuzzy, "Traditional" just becomes a...wink, wink, nudge nudge...sop to Auld Crabbits and rough old cobs like myself. And then you're back right where we started at--with all kinds of departures and interpretations ...and white hose. And probably rightfully so.

The sub-forum is a touchstone...it's not written in stone. Fashions do come and go. Individuals interpret...sometime brilliantly, sometimes not so much. But none of that is "Traditional."

[davidlpope]

I wear flat caps and Ike jackets and I don't give a damn.

I'm sure that if you posted about such practices here in the Traditional Highland Dress sub-forum, though, that folks would plainly point out that such things are not traditional. In fact we'd probably go on for pages about it.

If you were offended by such observations you'd likely put any future posts on similar topics in the Modern Kilt wear sub-forum, where the constraint of tradition doesn't hold sway. Easy peasey...

[DWFII]

I'm sure that if you posted about such practices here in the Traditional Highland Dress sub-forum, though, that folks would plainly point out that such things are not traditional. In fact we'd probably go on for pages about it.

If you were offended by such observations you'd likely put any future posts on similar topics in the Modern Kilt wear sub-forum, where the constraint of tradition doesn't hold sway. Easy peasey...

My point exactly...

So tell me again, why do we need yet another, different sub-forum for such departures?

Or, the same question asked another way, why do we need to change this forum to accommodate such departures? As I clearly stated, they are not Traditional, I ken that fine.

And if we did, where then is our touchstone?

BTW, there's a photo here somewhere of one of the English aristocracy wearing a kilt and a flat cap...dated, IIRC, within the Traditional time period. So perhaps my flat cap would be, as Matt, suggested, a carefully "informed" departure.

[Cowher]

Once you water down this sub-forum to the point that it's all indeterminate and warm and fuzzy, "Traditional" just becomes a...wink, wink, nudge nudge...sop to Auld Crabbits and rough old cobs like myself. And then you're back right where we started at--with all kinds of departures and interpretations...and white hose. And probably rightfully so.

BTW, there's a photo here somewhere of one of the English aristocracy wearing a kilt and a flat cap...dated, IIRC, within the Traditional time period. So perhaps my flat cap would be, as Matt, suggested, a carefully "informed" departure.

How do you get to pick and choose what is traditional?!? If people wore flatcaps between 1900 and 1980 and passed that practice down by example, by this subforums definition, it IS traditional!

So are the white hose that you and I dislike.

[DWFII]

You know, something that was said a while ago finally got through to me...there is no solace over in Modern Kilts is there?

So I went and took a look...my first, and last, look. There's an almost palpable hostility to any suggestion that there's value in Tradition and History and respect for ancient cultures, isn't there?

Suddenly I understand why the OP went looking for a little more expression.

I'll never, ever, look in on Modern Kilts, again. I am just grateful most of that vitriol has been excluded from this sub-forum.

I don't think changing this sub-forum is really the answer, though. I think it is good to have a touchstone for Traditional Highland Dress, just as there is a touchstone for Historical Highland Dress.

I don't know what the answer is...maybe, if another sub-forum isn't in the offing, maybe just a tacit agreement to tolerate "informed" departures without pages of discussion and condemnation.

Maybe just an endlessly evolving thread of informed departures?