Tradition vs. Orthodoxy

[DWFII]

What were you thinking!! Weren't the gill plate covers enough of a clue?

[Cowher]

Mammals evolved from fish but that doesn't mean they are the same species or can mate or that human beings are really just Traditional Trout.

No. Because at a point it stops being one thing and becomes another. Think of Feileadh Mor and a Feileadh beag. <~ spelling?
(I don't believe in evolution in humans but for the sake of conversation I understand what your driving at.)

[DWFII]

No. Because at a point it stops being one thing and becomes another. Think of Feileadh Mor and a Feileadh beag. <~ spelling?
(I don't believe in evolution in humans but for the sake of conversation I understand what your driving at.)

My point exactly. Traditions don't evolve much and what evolution occurs is often both extremely slow and more by necessity than fashion or whim.

In that sense, Traditions are not alive...especially not in the sense that people are bandying about. They exist only because the succeeding generation accepts them more or less "as is" and respects the impulses, the culture, the devotion which informs them.

If a fish is to remain a fish it has to look, swim, and behave like a fish...otherwise it becomes something else. And the genes that are passed on to the next generation will become a fish or, maybe once in a millennium an amphibian.

But a salamander will never be a fish. And fashion will never be tradition.

If that's orthodoxy than Hurrah, boys! for it and I'll abandon you to your heterodoxy.

[Cowher]

I think I don't understand what your saying. You keep taking things to a extreme. There are 28 species of piranha. All of them are fish all of them are piranha but each is a little different. Same with kilt style. I'm not saying MUGs are traditional. I don't think anyone is.

[DWFII]

I think I don't understand what your saying. You keep taking things to a extreme. There are 28 species of piranha. All of them are fish all of them are piranha but each is a little different. Same with kilt style. I'm not saying MUGs are traditional. I don't think anyone is.

There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of tartans...many, if not most, of them Traditional by the strictest of definitions.

PS...I'm not extreme...it is people who want to create their own definitions and philosophies, wholly divorced from any external consideration--such as communicating with other people--who are extreme. That's the way I see it, in any event. But then I'm a Traditionalist.

[tripleblessed]

[QUOTE=DWFII;998501PS...I'm not extreme...it is people who want to create their own definitions and philosophies, wholly divorced from any external consideration--such as communicating with other people--who are extreme. That's the way I see it, in any event. But then I'm a Traditionalist.[/QUOTE]

I don't know DWFII personally (and he may be grateful), so please understand I'm NOT qualified to make a personal statement about him, nor would I in a venue such as this, and emphatically am not doing so at this juncture. Should I be lucky enough to meet and get to know him, I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy it. Nor was I captain of the debate team at my kindergarten, much less Cornell or Stanford, so this is just general personal observation speaking.

My suggestion to all is to listen carefully to one's own choice of words, as the practice will reveal to one ideas, perceptions and prejudices one is unaware of holding. When in course of human debate I hear the statement "I'm not extreme", it may be true, so I don't discount it out of hand, but in an exceedingly high percentage of cases, whether kilts, politics or religion or the number of sand fleas in a jar, the person who says this is not only extreme, but is so in the extreme.

It may be a valid statement, but one I'd say best avoided when not among a homogenous, like-minded group.

[DWFII]

It may be a valid statement, but one I'd say best avoided when not among a homogenous, like-minded group.

I would point out...for those who don't read for comprehension and context...that I was responding to an accusation...or perhaps more accurately a characterization.

That said...again I refer you to my post which I ended with these words "But then I'm a Traditionalist." All by way of saying that in the Traditional Kilt sub-forum, or among Auld Crabbits I may even be considered a bit radical...I do like flat caps, for instance, and often wear an Ike jacket as a substitute for an Argyl.

[Bugbear]

Yes, it is very true that a fish is not a mammal. I am really not arguing with the traditional view point being expressed. If we are going to put this in evolutionary terms, let us, please, express things properly.

It is the genome associated with fish that evolved into the genome of mammals. The Phenotypic expression of those genes are, more or less, the vehicles of the genes.
Genes jump species all the time via bacteria etc, sometimes different species do combine into a new species (genomic shock) and so on. We splice fish genes into the genome of tomatoes, and spider silk genes into goat genomes. If the jumping gene finds a comfortable home in it's new genome,to anthropomorphize it a bit, it can become a mutation that is passed on. And of course if the gene causes problems that prevent the genome from being passed on, that is the negative side of natural selection.

I want to make it clear, again, that I am not trying to argue fashion is tradition, or against the traditionalists. The concept of the kilt has basic elements that we keep in our minds and extra-somatic memory, such as Barb's kilt book. These are like the genome of the kilt that gets passed from generation to generation, or person to person. An element of fashion can make it's way into this kilt genome and begin to be passed on. If it sticks, I would assume it is a tradition, like the adoption of knife rather than box pleats. We play the role of natural selection in this case, though it is fairly deliberate and willful.

I have experienced, first hand, that the traditionalists of this forum do not agree on some details of what is and is not traditional, as well as, what are and are not acceptable elements of traditional Highland attire. To me the true battle of the traditional kilt genome is playing out in the heads of the traditionalists, and much less the heads of the modernists.

[tripleblessed]

I would point out...for those who don't read for comprehension and context.

Examining context, one will note I specified and stipulated my statement was not aimed at you, but at avoiding being mis-perceived. Many years of teaching belief systems and perceptions led to the offering.

Truly not a personal statement, most abject apologies if it was received as such.

[DWFII]

Examining context, one will note I specified and stipulated my statement was not aimed at you, but at avoiding being mis-perceived. Many years of teaching belief systems and perceptions led to the offering.

Truly not a personal statement, most abject apologies if it was received as such.

I got all that. I was not insulted or put off either by your comments or the original characterization.

Frankly I just didn't see how your remarks were germane.