The Clearances

[macwilkin]

One thing I do know for certain is that no one living now has any right to judge historical people and their actions. The fact is the world is a very different place every 50 years changes thing immensely.

What our grand parents held as the norm (racism was institutionalised as was sexism, homosexuals were locked up and or chemically castrated etc) we would find terrible. What we hold as the norm now, one day will be judged by others.

Its easy to sit here in our ivory towers and judge the clearances, but they were different times with different values and different people.

History instructor bonnet on: I thank you, sir!

Todd

[BoldHighlander]

History instructor bonnet on: I thank you, sir!

Todd

As do I!!

[Ozark Ridge Rider]

One thing I do know for certain is that no one living now has any right to judge historical people and their actions. The fact is the world is a very different place every 50 years changes thing immensely.

What our grand parents held as the norm (racism was institutionalised as was sexism, homosexuals were locked up and or chemically castrated etc) we would find terrible. What we hold as the norm now, one day will be judged by others.

Its easy to sit here in our ivory towers and judge the clearances, but they were different times with different values and different people.

Right. As one who had ancestors on both sides in America's civil war, and who likely had ancestors on both sides at Culloden, and all of whom suffered for what they believed in, I am just profoundly grateful for the heritage they left to me.

I owe them much respect. As much as anything for the fact that, whether they were on the "right" side, or the "wrong" side, they were survivors. They did what they had to for what they believed in and just to get by.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

But on a side note, obviously MAc' Rath' was upset by my comment, and deleted his post, if you would like to continue this discusiion in private please feel free to PM me, and I assure you it will be an open and honest converstaion between us.Phil C

I actually deleted my post because I felt dragging the Darien catastrophe (1698) into the argument as possibly the economic trigger that fired off the clearances of the 18th and 19th centuries was really prolonging the agony of what I considered to be a rather well-worn, if not worn out, topic.

I did find your posting interesting, but flawed in its one-sided presentation of the conflict between the Maori and the European settlers. As any first year student of the lead up to the Maori wars knows, the Maori were in the vanguard of asking the British to step in to what was a lawless outpost prior to New Zealand being annexed by London.

However, as this forum is about kilts and kilt wearing-- and thus, by extension, tied to things Scottish (hence "X Marks the Scot")-- I really didn't think an on-going discussion about the 19th century British colonial expansion in the Southern hemisphere was really germane to the core topics at hand.

[ForresterModern]

The general adage of "history is told by the victors", or a slightly different bent "history is told by the survivors", leads most historians to believe that the stories untold were at least as bad if not worse than the stories told, allowing obviously for the potential for exaggeration under certain circumstances.

But as above, times were different, norms were different. Better to look back on it and learn from it than dwell on it or try to distribute blame for some of the outcomes. That is why it is called history---it is in the past and, excpet for its educational value, should be left there. Too many leftover vengences and residual hatreds present in todays world.

[###KILTEDKIWI###]

Originally Posted by Bruno
One thing I do know for certain is that no one living now has any right to judge historical people and their actions. The fact is the world is a very different place every 50 years changes thing immensely.

What our grand parents held as the norm (racism was institutionalised as was sexism, homosexuals were locked up and or chemically castrated etc) we would find terrible. What we hold as the norm now, one day will be judged by others.

Its easy to sit here in our ivory towers and judge the clearances, but they were different times with different values and different people.

History instructor bonnet on: I thank you, sir!

Seconded...

All valid points.

[dfmacliam]

I found my family history interesting.. on leaving Scotland.. James Claghorn fought in the Battle of Dunbar.. captured and survived the march.. was one of 240 sent to the Colonies.. his descendents are listed in the Who's Who of Martha's Vineyard.. and a grandson was George Claghorn, the builder of the USS Constitution... When I first learned of this history, I was kind of disappointed there was not a Highland connection.... but not anymore....

It was not the blight, or clearences.. or whatever.. that sent James to the Colonies.. .. just fighting for what he believed in...Scotland

[###KILTEDKIWI###]

Xxxxxxxxx

[Urchurdan]

The Clearances - or at least their residual effect, lasted long after Culloden, my father and his brothers all left school at eleven years of age to work on the croft. As there was not a living to be made for a large family, the brothers left home whenever they came of age, one ended up in Canada, two to New Zealand, one to England with my father being the least far travelled - he came south as many young Highlanders did and joined the Glasgow Police.
All this took place not in the 18th Century, but in the twentieth. I never met my paternal Granparents, hard work and poor living conditions lead them both to premature deaths.
Other people have spoken about the Clan Chiefs, and how they remained in their big houses while their kinsmen were forced to leave the Country, I would point out, that this was not true of all Chiefs, especially the ones who took part in the'45, most of them were forced into exile as well. my own Clan Chief is an American.
Another point I picked up on, was the lack of knowledge about Scottish History, I was born shortly after the Second World War, and back then, we were only taught 'British' ie usually English History. I could have told you as a youngster when the Battle of Hastings took place, but nothing about Culloden.
Since the advent of the new Scottish Parliament, that has changed, and there is a new emergence of Scottish pride and sense of Nationhood, and children are now being taught Scottish History.
This has been a very good post, which I have enjoyed thoroughly, thank you all.