Gold Brothers, aka...

[ForresterModern]

Ken

I think we are arguing degrees of expectation. You want to deal with a quality kiltmaker so you go out of your way to insure that they will handsew you kilt of the proper tartan, weight, and manufacturer of wool fabric, trusting that they will indeed handsew it themselves of that fabric in the correct pattern and size. That kiltmaker has the right to label their kilt as being handsewn by them and of what material etc. They can put all the information they want on their label, as long as it is true, but do they have to? If kiltmaker Cindy Lou MacWho normally works from his/her workshop in Glen Who and labels her kilts with her handsewn UK tartan made in Scotland by Cindy Lou MacWho labels, great, all the better for her and for you who buys your kilt from her. Maybe all those folks who do follow the traditions should brag about it and advertise POSITIVELY their attributes, educationg the public to the value of those attributes, and maybe the public will become more discerning along the way. Lord knows we all have on this forum from this kind of information sharing and open discourse, and that is why we are less likely to buy the "designed in Scotland" kilt without knowing more specific details about it that may be relevant to our needs. We have the right to ask the vendor for more information, and under those circumstances they should pony up the right answers or lose our business. But just exactly how much manufacture, content, and origin information is absolutely required on labelling for those kilts is a very slippery slope. MacDonalds (the restaurant chain, not the clan) publishes its nutritional data for all its food offerings, but is not required to stamp it on every Big Mac bun, each container of fries, and each Chicken Nugget. But it is (generally) supposed to be available in the store for the asking. Those who care will inquire and choose accordingly, those who don't won't. Same with the "designed in Scotland" label argument.

Caveat emptor rules---it is the consumer's responsibility, except for expected and legislated safety issues, to research his/her own purchases to the degree that he/she desires. The vendor only has minimal requirements of disclosure, as described by law, and is not bound to go further if they so choose. What you and I know about quality is that those quality vendors WILL go farther and give the information we want up front, BUT THEY DO SO VOLUNTARILY, and that is why discerning customers will choose to use them instead.

j

[MacKay71 Wife]

Please take the following comments as intended - in the nicest, calmest, non-confrontational, most straightforward way my Southern voice can put it!

All I'm asking is that a merchant (whoever that might be) tell me the truth about the article that I'm buying, ie: what it is, where it comes from, what it's made out of, etc. and let me make an informed decision as to whether I will make the purchase or not. Sometimes, I will choose to buy the cheaper, less quality, less authentic item for different reasons at different times, but that decision needs to be mine.
My comments about eBay were intended only as an example of what can happen to credibility to an entire industry when a merchant is less than truthful. To be perfectly honest, them telling me the item came from Gold Bros could very well have been another lie. The comments were not about Gold Bros per se, and I sincerely apologize that it appeared to come out like that. Because of that incident, and because I have never been to Scotland myself, I am now wary of making purchases from ANY merchant purporting to have "Made in Scotland" merchandise. This is no different than the wariness I have for a certain fabric maker who at one time made cheap knock-offs of a quality quilt material that then fell apart after several washings.

So, I think proper labeling is extremely important. If HoS takes this forum and uses it to improve their service, labeling, etc. More power to them, and may other companies follow their example! And in the end, we ALL benefit from that!

Let ME make the decision as to what quality to buy and how much to spend, but do not attempt to mislead me, whether on purpose or not!

[McClef]

MacDonalds (the restaurant chain, not the clan) publishes its nutritional data for all its food offerings, but is not required to stamp it on every Big Mac bun, each container of fries, and each Chicken Nugget. But it is (generally) supposed to be available in the store for the asking. Those who care will inquire and choose accordingly, those who don't won't. Same with the "designed in Scotland" label argument.

Caveat emptor rules---it is the consumer's responsibility, except for expected and legislated safety issues, to research his/her own purchases to the degree that he/she desires. The vendor only has minimal requirements of disclosure, as described by law, and is not bound to go further if they so choose. What you and I know about quality is that those quality vendors WILL go farther and give the information we want up front, BUT THEY DO SO VOLUNTARILY, and that is why discerning customers will choose to use them instead.

j

The two are not directly related - burgers and kilts and nobody expects a Big Mac to carry a label itself though as you say the information is supposed to be available in the restaurants.

However I have asked questions of staff in GB shops that they could not answer (I hope it was not a case of would not) and there is no separate information that I know of available in the GB stores so the "emptor" may not have enough information upon which to base a "caveat." Maybe this will improve with the better training that has been promised and I will put this to the test upon my next visit to Edinburgh which will possibly be in October.

When I ordered my Hunting Robertson in Hector Russell on the High St at a special price I was told immediately "of course at that price it will be machine and not hand sewn." Was that my favourite saleslady there, Moira, volunteering it personally or was it company policy that she should say so? I do not know. But that kilt carries the HR label so its origin can be identified - this is not the case with the cheaper kilts that are sold at other outlets besides those owned by GB. That only appears on their plastic bags which are no doubt soon discarded.

There has been much discussion about what constitutes a Scottish kilt and what criteria it should require and very little agreement - do the sheep have to be in Scotland for the wool, does the cloth have to be woven in Scotland or is the final product being made up in Scotland enough etc. etc.

We do know, however, that being "designed" and sold in Scotland are seemingly enough to convince many of the bona fides of the product. Lidl did not hide the fact that their kilts came from Germany - it was there on the packaging as was the material from which they were made yet they still sold exceedingly well so I would say that a fear of commercial loss is groundless. Price and instant gratification still have great power.

[ForresterModern]

However I have asked questions of staff in GB shops that they could not answer (I hope it was not a case of would not) and there is no separate information that I know of available in the GB stores so the "emptor" may not have enough information upon which to base a "caveat." Maybe this will improve with the better training that has been promised and I will put this to the test upon my next visit to Edinburgh which will possibly be in October.

Mcclef

I do not think we are far apart here with our points of view. From my visits to the couple GB retail outlets in Edinburgh last year I would doubt that one might get a proper fitting or very knowledgeable help from the clerks I interacted with (most of them either scottish or eastern european by comparison to some claims here of sourthern asian predominance), so I agree with you there----but I recognized that because of my discerning experience, and you were not shopping for an off the peg kilt as they carry in most of their shops. Hector russell is an entirely different type shop, from what little I know, based on their predominantly bespoke business. I would expect more knowledgeable help there, and hope for that kind of up front notification of all the various options, conditions and costs were I to order a kilt from them. I would like to see a similar level of service from a GB store as well but honestly, because of the general focus of their business at the tourist level, do not expect it. I did get it , however, from their online store (HoS) when I ordered from there, although a true fitting and bespoke manufacturing are not equivalent when ordering over the internet or phone as compared to being measured in the shop properly.

jeff

[KFCarter]

Ken

I think we are arguing degrees of expectation.

I agree completely, FM.

I just think a free market doesn't function to its potential unless everyone can trust that they're playing the game with real information. Any practice that undermines that trust, undermines the ability of good products and good practices to win out.

[bear]

Wow. All the bad comments about Gold Brothers over the years ... in these 13 pages, I haven't heard one solid reason for that level of bad publicity.
I have seen no honest question unanswered ... even some questions that are frankly nobody's business but the Gold Brothers.
And it continues in this thread with insinuating questions never asked of any other merchant on this forum, many of whom sell Pakistani manufactured accessories.
This whole thread leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. It dances around the reason for the enmity towards Gold Brothers but never quite gets to the point.
I think that if all things were the same but the Gold Brothers were Scottish, there would be no controversy.
In my opinion, the reasons for the sustained campaign against the Gold Brothers are business protectionism and racism.
I will admit that I normally would have spoken up in defense of a kiltmaker years ago but ... well this thread has shown me my own racism in this matter. I believed stereotypical rumours without proof because of the race of the people who own a company.
We've all let it go on this forum for years. Let's now at least admit it and put a stop to it.
That's the fairest thing to do.

[Chas]

Wow. All the bad comments about Gold Brothers over the years ... in these 13 pages, I haven't heard one solid reason for that level of bad publicity.
I have seen no honest question unanswered ... even some questions that are frankly nobody's business but the Gold Brothers.
And it continues in this thread with insinuating questions never asked of any other merchant on this forum, many of whom sell Pakistani manufactured accessories.
This whole thread leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. It dances around the reason for the enmity towards Gold Brothers but never quite gets to the point.
I think that if all things were the same but the Gold Brothers were Scottish, there would be no controversy.
In my opinion, the reasons for the sustained campaign against the Gold Brothers are business protectionism and racism.
I will admit that I normally would have spoken up in defense of a kiltmaker years ago but ... well this thread has shown me my own racism in this matter. I believed stereotypical rumours without proof because of the race of the people who own a company.
We've all let it go on this forum for years. Let's now at least admit it and put a stop to it.
That's the fairest thing to do.

Hear Hear - Well Said!

I am truly surprised at the Mods, allowing this to continue when other threads have been slammed shut at the merest whiff of the possibility that something might, maybe, be offensive.

Regards

Chas

[McMurdo]

Hear Hear - Well Said!

I am truly surprised at the Mods, allowing this to continue when other threads have been slammed shut at the merest whiff of the possibility that something might, maybe, be offensive.

Regards

Chas

Rest assured Chas, and everyone we are and have been watching this one. Some of the questions asked have been fair as we see it and those have for the most part been answered. Some have been ignored for good reason. On top of all that some members have actually apologized for their comments. We see this discussion as all to the betterment of the community.

[Rex_Tremende]

I am truly surprised at the Mods, allowing this to continue when other threads have been slammed shut at the merest whiff of the possibility that something might, maybe, be offensive.

Perhaps that's because it might actually be doing some good, despite its dicey moments.

I applaud Heather's willingness to participate in this dialog - looks like both sides are getting something out of it.

Regards,
Rex.

[KFCarter]

This whole thread leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. It dances around the reason for the enmity towards Gold Brothers but never quite gets to the point.

I don't think this is a fair representation of the thread as a whole. In fact, I think a careful reading of the thread will reveal that the "nasty" comments have not resonated and have been relegated to the dust bin where they belong, with an apology or two along the way for good measure. This thread could have gone off the rails a number of times, but has generally found its way back onto solid ground and I'm glad for two things: 1. the Mods are watching it (they should) 2. The Mods have left it open.

And I think Rex is spot on (as usual) below:

Perhaps that's because it might actually be doing some good, despite its dicey moments.

I applaud Heather's willingness to participate in this dialog - looks like both sides are getting something out of it.

Regards,
Rex.