formal evening dress: vest or no?

[Semiomniscient]

Having read most of this thread, I've found it all very interesting. Now, I feel like throwing in my two-cents.

I think many are trying to match the vest with the coat instead of the vest with the tie and shirt. I think the whole reason this model is shown wearing a 5-button vest/waistcoat with a Prince Charlie coatee is because of the tie he is wearing. Call it a cravat or rusche tie--I personally think it's too messy for a cravat--it would look weird untucked as it would be with a three-button vest.
The three button vest really goes with the bow-tie. This is the classic look for formal and semi-formal wear--and the three button vest also shows off the studs the generally accompany the pleated tuxedo shirt. (I think that one ought to invest the pittance it costs to get some studs for the tux-shirt as it makes it look so much "smarter").

I am not a fan of the Prince Charlie (or the three-button vest)--I don't find the cut particularly flattering on gents unless they are slimmer than the average. I prefer to take my Argyle jackets and dress them up with tuxedo-wear as I think they look better on more people. Of course however, I adore the doublets we see: Montrose, Kenmore, Sheriffmuir, Regulation, etc.

Anyway, I also tire of the "sea of black" jackets that someone earlier mentioned. Obviously, they are easier to match and bulk produce, but shouldn't be striking out to make a statement with something other than a kilt? ;-)

[CMcG]

<snip>
Re: removing your jacket. As MoR explained it isn't the Gentlemanly thing to do.

I have an example if you'll bear with me... <snip>

Wow, the military is as strict as I imagined!

I have an opposite example. At an outdoor wedding last summer, the noon-time sun was beating down, the temperature was around 37 degrees Celcius, and the humidity was tremendous because a tropical storm/low grade hurricane was about to blow through. No-one took off their jackets.

Before beginning the ceremony, the minister requested that everyone take off their jackets to avoid heatstroke. With a sigh of relief, most gentlemen (myself included) did. As soon as it was over, the jackets went back on and everyone retreated to the air conditioned reception room. It was nice to get a special dispensation from the presiding authority!

[CMcG]

MacLowlife is in charge of suggesting the jabot from now on.

<snip>

Or perhaps Chas might chime in? Here's a pick of him from the Ferintosh Burns Supper looking grand in a PC and jabot:

<snip>
I think many are trying to match the vest with the coat instead of the vest with the tie and shirt.
<snip>
Call it a cravat or rusche tie--I personally think it's too messy for a cravat--it would look weird untucked as it would be with a three-button vest.
<snip>
Anyway, I also tire of the "sea of black" jackets that someone earlier mentioned. Obviously, they are easier to match and bulk produce, but shouldn't be striking out to make a statement with something other than a kilt? ;-)

I believe a "ruche" is just a type of knot that is tied on an Ascot cravat and, as with any longer tie, looks better tucked into a higher cut waistcoat. Regardless of what you call it, the general opinion seems to be that it isn't up to snuff for traditional Highland formal. More like alternative/creative formal or perhaps a trend? Here is a slightly less scrunchy, black ruche that might be less objectionable though probably still won't pass muster around here:



As for the "sea of black," see the photo of Chas above!

[davidlpope]

I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm sure it's absolutely correct but I have never been to a wedding where all male guests have worn black tie post 18:00. I must mix in the wrong circles.

I don't think it's an issue of you mixing in the wrong circles. I think it's merely a result of different conventions in the US vs. UK. I wore a morning coat to my own wedding. Most of the guests were confused that I wasn't wearing the ubiquitous black tuxedo dinner jacket, so it's likely that I'm in the wrong circles...

These sort of incentives encourage you to keep your jacket on even if you have melted into a pool of salty water on the floor. It becomes like second nature NOT to remove it.

I well remember my mess night at The Basic School in Quantico during the middle of an especially hot and humid summer. I think I sweated through my undershirt, white band-collared shirt, and boxers. Not very appealing with Marine Dress Blue-Whites, but we didn't dare unfasten our collars, much less take off our blouses...

David

[Semiomniscient]

I believe a "ruche" is just a type of knot that is tied on an Ascot cravat and, as with any longer tie, looks better tucked into a higher cut waistcoat. Regardless of what you call it, the general opinion seems to be that it isn't up to snuff for traditional Highland formal. More like alternative/creative formal or perhaps a trend? Here is a slightly less scrunchy, black ruche that might be less objectionable though probably still won't pass muster around here:

With this I must disagree. Cravats can certainly be worn with Highland attire and while they have generally fallen out of favor to the likes of the necktie and the bowtie, they are still perfectly acceptable and are gaining more favor. Now I can agree that it they may not be considered "classic" but they do harken back to an older style, much as the jabot does. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, I've seen jabots worn with a cravat (but I may be wrong, and this wasn't with Highland attire.) Anyway, I think that cravats are well within the spirit of traditional highland attire, whether or not it has fallen out of favor and general use.

[Brian K]

With this I must disagree. Cravats can certainly be worn with Highland attire and while they have generally fallen out of favor to the likes of the necktie and the bowtie, they are still perfectly acceptable and are gaining more favor. Now I can agree that it they may not be considered "classic" but they do harken back to an older style, much as the jabot does. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, I've seen jabots worn with a cravat (but I may be wrong, and this wasn't with Highland attire.) Anyway, I think that cravats are well within the spirit of traditional highland attire, whether or not it has fallen out of favor and general use.

I agree that a cravat can be worn with Highland attire, but the more traditional ways of tying or securing it look best. The ruche knot seems to be a modern innovation used mainly by hire shops. I think it looks like you're trying to hard. I also think it looks a bit sloppy. Of course, since it seems mainly used to illustrate items in the hire trade it screams "I just rented this crap!" to me.

In any event, if you like it and have the opportunity to wear it, I say go ahead. I'm more than twice your age and that probably influences my opinion. Of course I've never really liked larger knots - a good old-fashioned four-in-hand is fine by me. I avoid buying any of the various forms of spread collar shirts just so I don't have to use a Windsor or half-Windsor knot. It probably didn't help that my stepfather used to tie his ties with knots the size of tennis balls. I used to try to talk him out of it, but Dad is a stubborn sort and, well... At present he almost never wears a tie and, while I wish he'd wear one to Lodge or to weddings or funerals, frankly, it's an improvement.

Regards,

Brian

[Semiomniscient]

I agree that a cravat can be worn with Highland attire, but the more traditional ways of tying or securing it look best. The ruche knot seems to be a modern innovation used mainly by hire shops. I think it looks like you're trying to hard. I also think it looks a bit sloppy. Of course, since it seems mainly used to illustrate items in the hire trade it screams "I just rented this crap!" to me.

In any event, if you like it and have the opportunity to wear it, I say go ahead. I'm more than twice your age and that probably influences my opinion. Of course I've never really liked larger knots - a good old-fashioned four-in-hand is fine by me. I avoid buying any of the various forms of spread collar shirts just so I don't have to use a Windsor or half-Windsor knot. It probably didn't help that my stepfather used to tie his ties with knots the size of tennis balls. I used to try to talk him out of it, but Dad is a stubborn sort and, well... At present he almost never wears a tie and, while I wish he'd wear one to Lodge or to weddings or funerals, frankly, it's an improvement.

Regards,

Brian

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't like the rusche knot and it looks sloppy to me. I too use the four-in-hand knot for regular ties and avoid too-big knots that are trendy these days.
I'm advocating for a good conservative cravat. That's all. :-)

[CMcG]

<snip>
I'm advocating for a good conservative cravat. That's all. :-)

Sounds interesting... I'll bite. Do you have a picture of such a cravat worn in formal style with a PC (or near equivalent)?

I've seen a couple members of the rabble wear pinned cravats (not sure of the proper name?) but more with Argyll or Sheriffmuir jackets. Looks good to me! Though it's a different cut of jacket than the subject of this thread, I'll post them anyway

Paul:


Matt:

[Brian K]

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't like the rusche knot and it looks sloppy to me. I too use the four-in-hand knot for regular ties and avoid too-big knots that are trendy these days.
I'm advocating for a good conservative cravat. That's all. :-)

OK, Jamie. I thought you were sticking up for the ruche knot. I'm glad to see you're more sensible than that .

Matt Newsome has posted some pictures of himself somewhere in the forum wearing cravats and I think it's a nice alternative look for kilt wear.

Regards,

Brian

PS - I see CMcG beat me to the punch. While Matt Looks splendid I do like the fact that Paul is wearing a tartan vest - it helps the outfit and makes the cravat stand out better. The all black look Matt is sporting is sharp, but also a bit severe. Breaking it up a bit with a contrasting or coordinated vest or a different color cravat might pick it up a bit more.

[Jordan]

I have an example if you'll bear with me.

John I have heard this or another vers simalar story before my first night in the Sergeant's mess and I have had it beat into me to wear propper uniform at all times in that place ith:
Jordan